190a5 turn

[TheThang]

Originally posted by Lusche
If you are trying to say "worse than the 30mm" - that's not quite correct.

For example at 600m (~660yds):

2cm M-Gesch FFM m. Zerl
time of flight: 1.43 seconds
drop: 7.63m  (~25ft)

3cm M-Gesch 108 m. Zerl. Ausf. A
time of flight: 1.66 seconds
drop: 11.1m (~36ft)

Just the same...if your are firing them along with the normal 20mm only 1 or the other is going to hit....unless your shooting at bombers in which case just use an A8

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by trigger2
Doubt it really affects turn rate, probably more roll rate as theres slightly more weight added to the wings, but, in a 190, that should be no trouble...

P.S. if your trying to turn a 190, I suggest the TA a bit to find out *subliminal message*it's the worst turner in the game*end subliminal message* how to fly it :]

Maybe you should fly one first. The A5 is a luvly little ride, it can give spits, ponies, la's, etc a bit of a fright in the right hands.

[Gixer]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Maybe you should fly one first. The A5 is a luvly little ride, it can give spits, ponies, la's, etc a bit of a fright in the right hands.

Agree, A5 is a great ride.


...-Gixer

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Maybe you should fly one first. The A5 is a luvly little ride, it can give spits, ponies, la's, etc a bit of a fright in the right hands.

That really isn't true.  A fantastic pilot in a 190 may be able to give a completely clueless pilot in an La-7 or Spit a fight - but if the Spit or La-7 pilot knows enough to go into a flat turn in one direction.. the 190 will die (A or F) or have to run (and still probably die, if its a better spit or an La-7 [D]).  

Even a P-51 should be able to beat one with very little trouble, and the P-51 isn't exactly a fearsome dogfighter.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Urchin
That really isn't true.  A fantastic pilot in a 190 may be able to give a completely clueless pilot in an La-7 or Spit a fight - but if the Spit or La-7 pilot knows enough to go into a flat turn in one direction.. the 190 will die (A or F) or have to run (and still probably die, if its a better spit or an La-7 [D]).  

Even a P-51 should be able to beat one with very little trouble, and the P-51 isn't exactly a fearsome dogfighter.

Agreed, on all points.  The FWs are pigs, plain and simple.

- oldman

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by Urchin
but if the Spit or La-7 pilot knows enough to go into a flat turn in one direction.. the 190 will die .  

This makes the assumption that an A5 stick is dumb enough to flat turn with a spit.  At speed, the A5 is a fine match for a 51.  At low speed, rolling overshoots are your friend.

And, if it hasnt been said already, the addition of the outboard 20mm's on the A/F/5/8 do not reduce the roll rate, they reduce the acceleration of the roll rate.

In other words, youll still achieve maximum roll, but it will take you longer to get there.

[Urchin]

The Spit and La7 are just flatly more manueverable than any 190... at any speed, in any direction.  The flat turn reference is just that... should the 190 attain decent position in a "rolling scissors", all the Spit or La has to do is turn.. in one direction.  The 190 can follow in the turn and die after 2-3 turns, or try to run.  If he runs, he will be run down and killed, or the cycle will start again after a brief chase.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Urchin
That really isn't true.  A fantastic pilot in a 190 may be able to give a completely clueless pilot in an La-7 or Spit a fight - but if the Spit or La-7 pilot knows enough to go into a flat turn in one direction.. the 190 will die (A or F) or have to run (and still probably die, if its a better spit or an La-7 [D]).  

Not nessesarily.  If the 190 has enough speed to use a vertical reversal he'll have at least one good shot opportunity on the bogie below him and, even if that just gets the bogies attention he may get a second opportunity in a subsequent move.

Also, a 190 with speed can easily handle ~540 degrees of flat turning before it has to break off as long as it's turning at relatively low G's.

Against a better stick (like you) the 190 won't match up for long but there's enough inexperience in the MA's that I've managed to beat Spits, F4U's, Hurri's, Zeke's, F6F's and many other more nimble fighters in the 190A-8 while sticking around to fight it out.  Occasionally, I've even won in slow turn fights with all three notches of flaps out but I wouldn't reccomend trying this.

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by Whisky58
Thanks Mosq - that answers my question and confirms my gut feeling.  I'd be very interested to see the results of your tests on the 2 cannon model.

Regards

I retested the 2 cannon and the 4 cannon.

2 Cannon 25% Fuel: No flaps Radius: 750 / Full Flaps: 556
2 Cannon 99% Fuel: No Flaps Radius: 836 / Full Flaps: 609

4 Cannons 25% Fuel: No Flaps Radius: 785  Full Flaps: 599

I didn't test the A5 with 99% fuel and 4 cannons. By the time you got slow enough to drop flaps, you're dead!

[moot]

MOSQ, 1 notch of flap is very often better than flaps fully down.

[Krusty]

This goes along with turn radius (i.e. how much weight do you save for how much turn radius?)

Taken from here:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197645

190A-5 2 guns 100% (139gal): 8584 lbs
190A-5 2 guns 0%: 7752 lbs
190A-5 2 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 8341 lbs
190A-5 2 guns (noMGAmmo) 100%: 8467 lbs

190A-5 4 guns 100% (139gal): 8780 lbs
190A-5 4 guns 0%: 7948lbs
190A-5 4 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 8465lbs

190A-5 2 guns DT (218gal): 9124 lbs
190A-5 2 guns DT dry (139gal): 8650 lbs
190A-5 2 guns DT dropped (rack on): 8584 lbs

139 gal = 832 lbs
1 gal = 5.985 lbs
79 gal DT = 474 lbs
1800 7mm rounds = 117 lbs
500 20mm rounds = 243 lbs
120 20mm rounds = 72 lbs
1x 7mm round = 0.065 lbs
1x 20mm round = 0.486 lbs
1x 20mm (MG/FF) = 0.6 lbs
2x MG/FF plus ammo = 196 lbs
each MG/FF gun without ammo = 62 lbs
Total DT weight = 540 lbs
Empty DT weight = 66 lbs



Total weight of the MG/FF and amm, 196 lbs. So for almost 200lbs savings, you gain about 40 feet.

MOSQ, is that radius, or diameter? I think it's radius, but have to ask.

So, could one theorize that if you saved 400lbs total, you'd gain 80 feet? What does that come out to, about 5 pounds per gained foot.

Still not too much, considering most planes out there. So, if you took off 1000lbs, you're gaining 200 feet. So if the plane had no gas and no ammo whatsoever, and only had the 2 gun option, imagine how tightly it could turn!!!

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by moot
MOSQ, 1 notch of flap is very often better than flaps fully down.

Never in my testing. Every plane turns a tighter circle with full flaps than 1 notch of flap. The only exception was the mis-modelled P-38 for awhile, but HTC fixed that.

I used to test at every flap setting. I gave up on that when I realized that it was irrelevant. It's important to know how well a plane turns with no flaps, and again at max flaps. In between you will be using them at various notches, but ultimately you and your opponent will end up at max flaps.

Krusty, yes, my numbers are in feet of radius.

[moot]

No MOSQ.. In practice 1 notch of flaps is a better choice than full flaps.   With full flaps there's a tighter turn but a proportionaly much lower speed.
It is an important enough figure to include it with no flaps and full flaps benchmarks.

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by moot
No MOSQ.. In practice 1 notch of flaps is a better choice than full flaps.   With full flaps there's a tighter turn but a proportionaly much lower speed.
It is an important enough figure to include it with no flaps and full flaps benchmarks.

Then go for it. Please do the testing and post your work.

[moot]

Nah.. I am right, though.  I'm pretty sure Widewing himself said more or less the same thing.