Author Topic: Israel Gaza offensive  (Read 2538 times)

Offline ZetaNine

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2008, 12:44:42 PM »
an article by larry miller..........spot-on true...and funny as hell.


A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't thank me. I'm a giver.

Here we go: the Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.

It's a made up word.

Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."

I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."

Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun.

No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course-that's where the real fun is-but mostly they want Israel.

Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel-or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it-for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim MidEast.

Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one. Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it.

And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea?

Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents?

Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away. However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful.

Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a bad idea... uh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)

Offline RTHolmes

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2008, 12:58:19 PM »
well you just proved this Larry Miller guy isnt too smart. which part of that exactly is funny?
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Offline Nashwan

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2008, 01:54:52 PM »
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but lemme start at the beginning....when THE UN formed what is now known as Israel, from land nobody wanted or lived on.


When the UN created their partition plan in 1947, the population of Palestine was  about 1.8 million. 1.2 million of those were Arabs, 600,000 Jews.

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there were no such thing as "Palestinians" back then...the term was not invented yet.


Britain received a mandate from the League of Nations at the end of WW1 to run Palestine, and create a Jewish homeland. Their first report to the LoN was in 1921. It said, amongst other things:

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But as the preliminary work is completed, and as Palestinians possessing the necessary qualities can be chosen and trained to administrative work, it is intended to reduce the number of British and to increase the number of Palestinian officials.


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Law classes have been established in Jerusalem, which will enable young Palestinians to qualify as advocates in the local courts.

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British and Palestinian, at headquarters and in the districts, in the administrative departments, in the judiciary, in the technical services, in the police--the officials of the Government have displayed a high degree of loyalty and zeal.


And so on. The term "Palestinian" was being used by the British administration at least as early as 1921, more than 45 years before the date you claim it hadn't been invented.

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They lived in Jordan...and did not even want the land until jews moved there and turned the desert into a thriving successful paradise. kinda like vegas...but with less new yorkers.


The British did the first modern census of Palestine in 1922. The population then was:

Moslems - 589,177
Jews - 83,790
Christians - 71,464
Others - 7,617

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also...glossing over your Jordan/1967 thing....I see you omitted that the land was "captured" from Jordan....AFTER JORDAN AND SEVERAL OTHER NATIONS ATTACKED ISRAEL...AND LOST..


The initial attack was of course by Israel on Egypt.

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spoils of war and all that.


No. The world rejected seizing land by force before WW2. We hanged a few Germans for doing that.

What Israel, and most of the rest of the world, including the US, has signed up to is self determination. We don't recognise that people should be born, live and die as subjects of another country.

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the reason it hasn't been all given back just yet is this silly little issue that Palestinians have with sending over children to blow themselves up on Israeli public busses...whodda thunk?


Only the land was taken in 1967. The first suicide bombing in Israel was in 1993.

The problem with using terrorism to justify more violence is both sides have a long history of terrorism. In fact, there is no one still alive who was around when the tit for tat killings began.

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an article by larry miller..........spot-on true...and funny as hell.


What do you call someone who takes history lessons from a comedian?

Offline lasersailor184

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2008, 02:17:36 PM »
Palestine is a geographical location, not a race of people.  Anyone living in that area are Palestinians, and have been referred to as such from the dawn of history.


It has only been recently that the word was corrupted to make you think that Palestinians were a certain set of people, and that since Palestine is referred to many times throughout history, that the land has always been theirs.




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Offline Elfie

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2008, 02:43:31 PM »
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Well, actually Israel launched the attack against Egypt. But that's a bit beside the point. The vast majority of the Palestinians in the West Bank were not even born when Israel began the military occupation.


Yes, Israel did attack first. It was however, a preemptive strike. Egypt had already massed 1000 tanks and 100,000 men along the border with Israel. Israel believed they were going to be attacked and attacked first. The best defense is a good offense.
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Offline AWMac

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2008, 03:13:22 PM »
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Originally posted by Elfie
Yes, Israel did attack first. It was however, a preemptive strike. Egypt had already massed 1000 tanks and 100,000 men along the border with Israel. Israel believed they were going to be attacked and attacked first. The best defense is a good offense.


Yep!  That's the way I inderstood it also.

Thanx Elfie :aok

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Offline Reschke

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2008, 03:20:24 PM »
Zeta - Why don't you check up on your history while you are at it. Having been a history major while in college with a specialty in Middle Eastern/Roman history you are incorrect. For a quick glance look at the following link.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Palestine

The word Palestine was actually derived from a combination of Greek, Hebrew, and Egyptian words for some of the different people that lived in the area now referred to as Israel.
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Offline Elfie

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2008, 03:36:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AWMac
Yep!  That's the way I inderstood it also.

Thanx Elfie :aok

Mac


So many forget, or just plain ignore the fact that it was a preemptive strike and not just unwarranted aggression on the part of Israel. Some ignore it even after it gets pointed out to them in every thread where this comes up.

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At the end of May 1967, Jordanian forces were given to the command of an Egyptian General Abdul Munim Riad. On the same day, Nasser proclaimed: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel ... to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations.
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Offline evenhaim

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2008, 04:06:25 PM »
My simplest explanation to any who disbelieves israel's right to exsist is that look at the facts the religion of islam was only established in 70 ad it is quite literally impossible therefor for the jews to have no cliam to this land, nor was it "stolen". Jews have been living in the land of israel for thousands of years before the establishment of islam.  (random fact)Did you know that the palestinians took there name from the phillistine empire? A nation with no connection to these people.  

Nashwan Israel did sieze these terrotories yes, but to manipulate the citizens....why? i wouldnt see purpose or means here, give me evidence.  Do you know that palestines where diffused among the arab world  in 48 after the Arabs attacked FIRST after DENYING the partition plane set up by the UN?  King abdullah of jordan even went so far as to attack these poeple with jets and killed somewhere in the tens of thousands of them.  These people are unwanted by all nations even there own supposed "arab brothers". Yet when provided territory they screw themselves over by declaring jihad, spitting rockets on sederot and ashquelon and blowing up cafes and busses.  The palestinain deserve to be portrayed in a different light not the poor nation being raped and pilaged by the evil israeli motherland, and although is israel has made numerous mistakes in dealing with them IMO there is no perfect way to deal with a self harming population.

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« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 04:08:50 PM by evenhaim »
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Offline evenhaim

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Re: Re: Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2008, 04:23:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
Let me update you on this a bit. Israel's retaliation is what Hamas wanted. They were practically begging for it.

The situation is that Hamas leadership is getting desperate. They took over the Gaza strip from the Palestinian authority (PLO affiliated) by force and got stuck. The momentum did not carry to the west bank and so they became an isolated island of an extremist islamic regime. Nobody, not even the neighboring arab nations recognize them as a Palestinian leadership and most of the world refused to deal with them. On their side, they still refuse to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, giving Israel every excuse not to deal with them as well. They are holding a kidnapped Israeli soldier and asking for ridiculous deals for his release - which they actually believed they will get, but so far only received 'get bent' replies. Last week they tried to organize a large popular march toward the Israeli border. It failed miserably - too few people showed up and the foreign camera crews left without taking any 'palestinian suffering and Israeli cruelty' footage.

The 'peace talks' (as idle as they are) scares the crap out of them. They know that if Abas (Abu Mazen) reaches any deal with Israel this is the end of their islamic state and a critical blow to Hamas. What they do now is creating a humanitarian crisis on purpose. Once the number of their dead is high enough, the EU will start demanding 'talks' with Hamas, recognizing them as the true palestinian leaders instead of dealing with Abu Mazen and the PLO guys. In addition, they will appear as the heroes in the eyes of palestinian people, for shooting rockets into Israel and not being destroyed for it (they learned that from Hizballa). They are shooting rockets into Israel, but actually aim for Abas. If you listen closely to their rhetorics, they talk against Israel's brutality, but try to throw mud at Abas as Israel's puppet. They describe Abas as attempting to return to Gaza riding on Israeli tanks.

In addition, their leaders are now scared of being targeted, especially after Imad Mornia, Hizballa #2 man lost his head two weeks ago in Damascus, in "mysterious circumstances". One of their demands for cease fire is that Israel will stop all targeted killings and arrests in the west bank as well (and let them take over that region well).

The Hamas logic is 'the worse the situation is, the better off we are'. This is a classical palestinian tactic of banging their heads against the wall and then crying for help from the world when it hurts. They have "perfected" the use of  this method is the past 60 years and still have not learned.


Dont forget that hamas denies fuel and food to the palestinian poeple to make thier "plight" seem more harsh. Like a few weeks ago when hamas siezed humanitarian shipments of bread and "failed to distribute them".
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2008, 04:31:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ZetaNine
I don't even know where to BEGIN with this......but lemme start at the beginning....when THE UN formed what is now known as Israel, from land nobody wanted or lived on....there were no such thing as "Palestinians" back then...the term was not invented yet.  


That is blatently untrue.

If that is the case then why was my mother and all 4 of my uncles  taught in the early to mid 1940s in geography about Palastine?
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2008, 04:40:56 PM »
I'd say the Romans were around just slightly before the UN was formed.
by a couple of years anyway. LOL


"Palestine is a historic region in southwestern Asia. It is situated at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea and forms part of the larger region known as the Middle East. Strategically located at a crossroads between East and West and near where Africa and Asia meet, Palestine has been the site of countless invasions and movements of peoples. It is, moreover, the land of the Bible and is considered holy by three major religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Few regions of such relatively small size have been so bitterly fought over through the centuries.

The word "Palestine" comes from "Philistine," the name for one of its early peoples. The Roman province in this region was known as Syria Palestina . Palestine's boundaries have varied widely over its long history. Although it once extended over a wider area, it is generally thought of today as the geographical region extending from the Sinai Peninsula on the south to Lebanon and Syria on the north and from the Mediterranean Sea on the west to the Jordan River and the Dead Sea on the east."

http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=5904

">In A.D. 135 : The Romans drove the Jews out of Jerusalem. They named the area Palaestina , at about this time. Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until the fourth century A.D. (300's) and then by the Byzantine Empire."

http://www.cirs-tm.org/Pays/CadreENG.php?pays=Israel
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Offline evenhaim

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2008, 04:42:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by evenhaim
 (random fact)Did you know that the palestinians took there name from the phillistine empire? A nation with no connection to these people.  


lol dred
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2008, 04:46:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by evenhaim
My simplest explanation to any who disbelieves israel's right to exsist is that look at the facts the religion of islam was only established in 70 ad it is quite literally impossible therefor for the jews to have no cliam to this land, nor was it "stolen". Jews have been living in the land of israel for thousands of years before the establishment of islam.  (random fact)Did you know that the palestinians took there name from the phillistine empire? A nation with no connection to these people.  

Nashwan Israel did sieze these terrotories yes, but to manipulate the citizens....why? i wouldnt see purpose or means here, give me evidence.  Do you know that palestines where diffused among the arab world  in 48 after the Arabs attacked FIRST after DENYING the partition plane set up by the UN?  King abdullah of jordan even went so far as to attack these poeple with jets and killed somewhere in the tens of thousands of them.  These people are unwanted by all nations even there own supposed "arab brothers". Yet when provided territory they screw themselves over by declaring jihad, spitting rockets on sederot and ashquelon and blowing up cafes and busses.  The palestinain deserve to be portrayed in a different light not the poor nation being raped and pilaged by the evil israeli motherland, and although is israel has made numerous mistakes in dealing with them IMO there is no perfect way to deal with a self harming population.

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">Palestine has been settled continuously for tens of thousands of years. Fossil remains have been found of Homo Erectus, Neanderthal and transitional types between Neanderthal and modern man.
>About 2000 B.C. : Amorites, Canaanites, and other Semitic peoples related to the Phoenicians of Tyre entered the area, which became known as the Land of Canaan.
>King David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of Transjordan. The kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David's son, Solomon.
>722 B.C. : The Assyrians conquered Israel.
>Around 586 B.C. : The Babylonians conquered Judah, destroyed Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, and exiled a large number of Jews.
>About 61 B.C. : The land came under Roman control. The Romans called the area Judea.
>In A.D. 135 : The Romans drove the Jews out of Jerusalem. They named the area Palaestina, at about this time. Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until the fourth century A.D. (300's) and then by the Byzantine Empire.
>During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. Most of the local population gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of their rulers. '

They conquered it. then were conquered themselves and lost it for over 1000 years before it was given to them.

Maybe we should give the american indians New York back too.


Hmm actually I kinda like that idea:p
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Offline straffo

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2008, 04:57:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
So many forget, or just plain ignore the fact that it was a preemptive strike and not just unwarranted aggression on the part of Israel. Some ignore it even after it gets pointed out to them in every thread where this comes up.



I fail to see the difference between an attack and a preemptive attack.

I mean is that really different when you have a bomb coming your way ?