Video of P63 KingCobra Biggen Hill

[Bronk]

Please, back up your claim then.

[Krusty]

Soviet rule changed the history books to make themselves look better. They lied about aircraft stats to boost their own in the eyes of their superiors. They fabricated so much that all soviet references in regards to plane performance were suspect up until only recently (some 50 years AFTER the war ended!), when some more-so reliable ones have come to light after being hidden for so long.

And you think they'd draw the line at fabricating kills to make their own people look good, to boost their own morale?

It was a corupt system, all the way to the top. Stalin himself said on some occasions that his subordinates needed to find more traitors, even if just to pad the lists of those being sent to camps.

Prove to me they were faithful in this one area while not in those others.


EDIT: This doesn't have anything to do with pilot skill. It was the politics and dangers behind the pilots, IMO. You just can't trust those soviet kill records because of their complete paranoid secrecy, destruction of records, fabrication of records, and other propoganda activities.


P.S. It's been proven as fact that they lied to make martyrs of their pilots. One pilot was killed by a Ju87 tail gunner and they make up a story about engaging 20+ me109s, taking down 6 then heroically dying. These have been brought up on this and other forums in the past, and have been verified.

[Bronk]

That's not backing it up.
That's opinion. I'm sure borodas opinion would differ.

[Krusty]

See my P.S. The soviets have been caught doing this. The facts have been brought out and the "soviet version" proven wrong. It's not opinion.

So, tell me, in YOUR opinion why would they go through all that trouble and NOT lie about kills?

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Krusty
See my P.S. The soviets have been caught doing this. The facts have been brought out and the "soviet version" proven wrong. It's not opinion.

 

Links to this story in your PS?

[hubsonfire]

Read through some of Widewing's posts in this thread.

http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109853&perpage=25&highlight=russian%20kills%20claims&pagenumber=3

I think this was the inspiration for Krusty's story. I'd dug some of that thread up for another more recent thread.

[Bronk]

Thanks hub, some interesting reading in that  thread.

[moot]

I just want to say.. I've been fighting with the Ta152's instabilities, and I've come to like them.  I'm starting to find them more helpful than not in pulling off good ACM.  Sort of like modern jet fighters' designed instability.

So here's to another oddball dogfighter.. The noobs'll fail to make heads or tails of its limits, and the real dogfighters'll flog it for all it's worth.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by moot
I just want to say.. I've been fighting with the Ta152's instabilities, and I've come to like them.  I'm starting to find them more helpful than not in pulling off good ACM.  Sort of like modern jet fighters' designed instability.

So here's to another oddball dogfighter.. The noobs'll fail to make heads or tails of its limits, and the real dogfighters'll flog it for all it's worth.

I think that's it exactly.  Our old Airwarrior buddy Earl Miller was a real life 39 pilot with the 350th.  He loved it, but he also had a ton of hours in it.  

I'm afraid that a lot of guys are going to give up on it in a hurry in AH when it isn't uber, and they fail to realize it might take some work to find it's strengths.

[evenhaim]

Things like this sadden me so deeply, and im trying really hard to not sound like an arse but, why be so reckless with a piece of history, and ones life, i know most of these pilots have thousands of flight hours but still bugs me to the core when a warbird is lost to a preventable cause.


ps: heres another example of my point
Warning it is crash footage so it may be harsh
http://youtube.com/watch?v=O1cQPpHdUnI&feature=related

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by evenhaim
Things like this sadden me so deeply, and im trying really hard to not sound like an arse but, why be so reckless with a piece of history, and ones life, i know most of these pilots have thousands of flight hours but still bugs me to the core when a warbird is lost to a preventable cause.


ps: heres another example of my point
Warning it is crash footage so it may be harsh
http://youtube.com/watch?v=O1cQPpHdUnI&feature=related

Might be hard to believe but that Spit, RM689 is in the process of being rebuilt.  It was the Rolls Royce test aircraft and with them for many years until that crash.  It is going to fly again.  Lots of new metal, but that's the ID it's going to carry.

As for flying warbirds.  Those guys have tons of hours in them.  There will always be a risk, but in my mind it's one worth taking if only to let people see them 'in action'.  A Spitfire in a museum is not the same as hearing and seeing a Spitfire in flight.  There is nothing like that sound.

[evenhaim]

i agree but why loop a spitfire at under 600ft.... thats what bugs me.

[Lumpy]

The P-63 stalled inverted. Very difficult to recover from an inverted stall and very easy to go into a spin. Same thing happened to this Mosquito:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ag5ut3tP3ZM


 

[Squire]

"EDIT: This doesn't have anything to do with pilot skill. It was the politics and dangers behind the pilots, IMO. You just can't trust those soviet kill records because of their complete paranoid secrecy, destruction of records, fabrication of records, and other propoganda activities."

...as opposed to the Truth and Justice (tm) of the Third Reich, or the Imperial Japanese. 

Your like a lot of folks who have an obvious "thing" against the Russians, largely because of the Cold War (my guess), and as a result, you template that over any discussion about WW2 history.

"Those darn Russians"...ya, they were the only country in WW2 without any good pilots, anything noteworty must have been for "propoganda", no other country ever exaggerated its wartime heroes, or got any facts wrong, ever. The entire victory on the Eastern Front was a massive PR campaign.

...I call "BS" to your entire post, its not substantiated by any serious sources, and its obviously politically driven, cherry picked, slanted, gibberish, masquerading as "history". Much like the revisionists from other neighborhoods who visit these boards.

Regards.

[evenhaim]

"EDIT: This doesn't have anything to do with pilot skill. It was the politics and dangers behind the pilots, IMO. You just can't trust those soviet kill records because of their complete paranoid secrecy, destruction of records, fabrication of records, and other propoganda activities."

...as opposed to the Truth and Justice (tm) of the Third Reich, or the Imperial Japanese. 

Your like a lot of folks who have an obvious "thing" against the Russians, largely because of the Cold War (my guess), and as a result, you template that over any discussion about WW2 history.

"Those darn Russians"...ya, they were the only country in WW2 without any good pilots, anything noteworty must have been for "propoganda", no other country ever exaggerated its wartime heroes, or got any facts wrong, ever. The entire victory on the Eastern Front was a massive PR campaign.

...I call "BS" to your entire post, its not substantiated by any serious sources, and its obviously politically driven, cherry picked, slanted, gibberish, masquerading as "history". Much like the revisionists from other neighborhoods who visit these boards.

Regards.

Both the Germans and Japanese where known for their extremly impeccible record keeping and highly detailed documents, whereas the russians where known to fabricate kill numbers etc sometimes giving different pilots credit for the same kill, it was all a propaganda tool, altough i still dont believe in some of the top aces like hartman's kill counts.