When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?

[Rich46yo]

                        Im not going to lose sleep over terrorists getting dunked in water......personally.

                        Only an American could worry about the rights of those bent on annihilating us.

[Arlo]

I'm pretty sure you're bent on it now. This country was founded on rights.

[bj229r]

True enough, but it wasn't founded on the rights of Achmed Saheed Skyhook to slaughter women and children---if they want to be treated like real POW's, try wearing a uniform, attacking OTHER people wearing uniforms, and not hiding behind women and children---Rich pretty well states my view--I doubt there is going to be a 'meeting-of-the-minds' on this subject

[Thruster]

I gotta wonder, maybe a poll or something is in order. I wonder how many of us that condone this tactic really have a horse in this race.

Let me explain.

One of the things that helped fuel anti communist sentiments during the 50's and 60's was the recollection many veterans had of the way the Soviets conducted themselves after the war. The Russian army's record of atrocities committed while moving through Eastern Europe is well documented and the guys on the ground that came into contact with it came away horrified that people could behave that way in victory. More recently we've watched an endless parade of regimes that had one notable attribute in common, torture. And those that have born witness there seem to feel the same way.

They held themselves to a higher standard. Maybe they could empathize with the victims as they were recently in danger of themselves becoming captive, or maybe their values were assaulted. Nonetheless they considered that conduct to be barbaric and un-American.

These are the people we look up to. They paid the price and did the time. Ask them. I'll bet the old guys (and gals) who have earned the right to an opinion will tend towards dignified treatment of captives.

If you want to hold yourself up to a higher standard, you have to.........
Conduct yourself at a higher standard.

[Suave]

What I cannot reconcile is the double standard. One one hand they say, we can treat them like this because they are combatives taken from the battlefield, so we can prosecute within the military judicial system. Then on the other hand other hand they say, we will not treat them as enemy military because they are just terrorists, criminals. It's a glaring double standard, and it makes the US look very hypocritical and that we don't respect the rule of law.

The problem is caused by using the military to manage these detainees. The military must operate within the bounds of a very vital code of conduct befitting a country governed by the rule of law.

The CIA by it's nature cannot conform to any code of conduct. The CIA's mission is to operate illegally where and when it must. That's why the need for such secrecy. The CIA alone should manage the detainment of these criminals in secret. We must either treat them as criminals or combatants.

 

[Lumpy]

Waterboarding is just the latest euphemism for an ancient method of torture. It was invented by the nice and friendly interrogators of the Spanish Inquisition. They called it tortura del agua - water torture, a much more fitting name for it I think. Those of you who think that water torture "causes no permanent or lasting injury" are sadly mistaken and a bit dim if I may be so bold. Water torture can cause lasting physical and psychological damage, and even death. The terror of imminent death is pervasive, with all of the physiologic and psychological responses expected, including an intense stress response, manifested by rapid heart beat and gasping for breath. There is a real risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack or damage to the lungs from inhalation of water. Long term effects include panic attacks, depression and PTSD.

Waterboarding has been used by the European colonial powers, the Soviets, the Nazis, the North Vietnamese, the Khmer Rouge, the Pinochet regime in Chile, the Japanese in WWII, the Red Chinese, The North Koreans and just about every other evil and brutal regime in modern history. Don't fool yourselves by giving it a new name and not calling it torture. If you really want America to be associated with evildoers and terror regimes then go right ahead. To more and more people around the world the American flag no longer stands for freedom or justice. Several European courts have already ruled that US prisons and treatment of prisoners do not meet the minimum of human rights and thus refuse extradition of prisoners to America.

Is this the way you want the world to think of America? The Stars and Stripes flying next to the Swastika and Hammer and Sickle in the annals of history? I sure don't.

[Shuffler]

If we are at war with a country that tortures our people then we should do the same. You folks that think your taking the high road by not doing so will kill more of your own.

You simply weaken your side because of your personal feelings. War is not a pretty thing... no matter if your on the wining side or the losing side. Decesions have to be made that under other circumstances would be considered cruel and unusual.

I was once asked if I thought my truck was worth shooting and killing a guy for just because he was stealing it. I did not make that determination... the guy stealing the truck made the decision that he thought his life was a decent trade. I was just protecting my belongings.

[Lumpy]

"If we are at war with a country that tortures our people then we should do the same. You folks that think your taking the high road by not doing so will kill more of your own."

This must be the single most silly argument I've read here for a while. Perhaps you should ask your forefathers how many lives freedom and justice is worth. That you want to sell your civility and decency so cheaply is an affront to the sacrifices they made.

[NUKE]

This must be the single most silly argument I've read here for a while. Perhaps you should ask your forefathers how many lives freedom and justice is worth. That you want to sell your civility and decency so cheaply is an affront to the sacrifices they made.

Can you name one war that was won by using civility and decency?

War is war. It's kill or be killed and the winners are the ones that have the resolve to do whatever it takes to win. Sorry if that does not fit into the nice picture of the ideal world that you imagine.

[CAP1]

If the terrorists are not US citizens, they have no rights under our law.

Since terrorists are not uniformed members of any countrys army, they have no rights under Geneva Convention.




Do whatever it takes to win.

 

[CAP1]

Yeah, like I said, anyone can be made to confess anything by torturing. However, the reliability of confession gained through torture is questionable.

I'm not sure I believe this particular Mohammed necessarily participated in every terrorist act he's confessed. He was tortured to confess. Either he participated in the attacks or he chose to confess to save himself from being tortured all the time.

how then do you suggest we acquire the needed information sir?

[Lumpy]

"Can you name one war that was one by using civility and decency?"

One? lolz Yes, I can name one war: Gulf War I. The coalition went to great lengths to minimize the horrors of war and to care for the captured and wounded enemy. The war was won easy.

In the words of an American World War II poster, torture is "the method of the enemy."

[Lumpy]

"If the terrorists are not US citizens, they have no rights under our law."

That is simply wrong. All persons no matter what their nationality are subject to US law as long as they are in US jurisdiction. And all persons in US legal jurisdiction must be afforded human rights by the international laws which the US have ratified.

[Lumpy]

how then do you suggest we acquire the needed information sir?

You either get the information trough legal civilized means or you don't. If you can't get the information you take the consequences of your failure and work with what you've got.

[NUKE]

"Can you name one war that was one by using civility and decency?"

One? lolz Yes, I can name one war: Gulf War I. The coalition went to great lengths to minimize the horrors of war and to care for the captured and wounded enemy. The war was won easy.

In the words of an American World War II poster, torture is "the method of the enemy."

Look up "highway of death" then report back.

War is brutal and the idea is to win at all costs. That's just the way it is.