Answer for Kermit

[AKKaz]

Let's see if I can give you an answer Kermit........

Having rallying points over one of the nmy's targets is a bad idea. Not only do you run the risk of getting spotted by their scouts looking for targetting info, also getting hit by their strike force there or running into each other on the same departure/arrival line percentage is high.

For the second part.........

There was one aspect I never saw before, especially flying this FSO.  With the majority of the AK's taking a break from friday ops, we went from a large squadron to a small one.  When you come into these events with a large number squad you get basic orders.  You are givin an objective, overall rules for that event and a plan.  The plan is usually basic, more emphasis is givin to completing your objective.  With that in mind, it is easy as a single squad to reroute, readjust or go a different way.  Noone really cares or is concerned as long as you complete your task assigned.  How you complete it and how you get there are of no real concern.

But when you come into these events with small numbers, you are hooked up with others.  Flexibility drops drastically as the things that you do may or may not have an effect on the others.  The plans are more specific in nature and deviations from it might have consequences.  If I go against planned routes or setup orders, even if my small squad accomplishes its mission, it may cause others to fail due to my deviation.

A large squad can jump on the fly, small squads cannot due to being linked with others.  If we had had our usual 16 guys and on our own orders I most definitely would not have went anywhere close to that planned route.  But seeing how 3-4 squads had been linked together I had no choice but to fly the route designated no matter what I thought was the forseeable future.  Did I forsee the outcome that happened? I figuired it probably would happen from past experience.  But nothing could have been done from my end without changing things for others in this case.

Hope that is a better answer

My suggested solution?   Planners need to take closer scrutiny on setups using multiple smaller squads than the larger ones that are giving assignments by themselves.  I can understand how items like this in planning are not forseen.  I remember a year ago on a pacific FSO that planning had our rearm base as the only base within 2 1/2 sectors.  Problem was the base was the PRIMARY target for the enemy.  Returning from our first run, no ammo and low on fuel you can only guess what happened.  As soon as they took out the ack, it was all over. These small things  in oversights IMHO can make of break an entire event.

[Sled]

Good observation, very true.

[Kermit de frog]

There is risk of early detection in almost every flight.

By having the TBMs up from a different CV as their escort, rallying over a Ship on the map made it an easy RP.  Other flights had to rally their bombers with their escorts and they did fine, as far as I know.  This plan required actual communication with other squads.  I hope some of you liked the idea of meeting up with your escorts/bombers.  One reason I had the TBMs up from the same CV was to get use of ALL airfields.  This made taking off easier and no timing had to be done for taking off to avoid 80 planes trying to take off from the same CV at the same time.  Had the TBM's upped from the closer CV, I have them climb over their CV, which would not be a target to the germans, and have their escort fly all the way to the bombers.  By having the bombers fly by themselves for awhile, this lets each squad settle down and do some extra planning on their part.

Normally I'd have the escorts and bombers fly from the same airfield to get things rolling quicker.

I feel as though I followed the spirit of an FSO event.  Other flights had to do the same thing as your flight and they were okay.  Another squad who didn't have to rally their escorts with their bombers were intercepted before they arrived to their target.  They were not made up of multiple squadrons yet they had a similiar event happen to them.

I hope you had fun AKKaz working together with so many different people.  You are saying that rallying over an enemy target is a bad thing, I agree there was a risk, but so was having a rally point closer to the target or even worse, having it in the flight path of an enemy attack mission.  If I had more time, I would have flown the map and drawn out possible enemy courses and then would have attempted to find an RP Point closer to your CV and run the risk of your TBMs intercept early with no fighter protection  close enough.

It's early in the morn so I hope I'm making sense.  

[Drano]

I think its perfectly OK for a squad CO to ask if he sees a potential problem with the plan that the CIC hasn't maybe thought of. In fact its probably his duty to do so. (sorry to sound so official hehe).

I'd have to agree having a rally point right in the vicinity of probable NME activity isn't a good idea. When you get the objectives and look at the map one of the first things you should be doing  as CIC is thinking of where the NME might be looking for your attacks--and plan routes *around* those areas. Its important that your attackers make it to the target alive to inflict damage. Fighting their way in is just rolling the dice. And secondly thinking of what routes the NME might use to attack you --and plan a solid defense in the area of those routes.

Rally points should be about a sector or maybe more away preferrably in a direction from the target they might not be looking for an attack. Putting one right over a target or in within vis range of a potential NME attack route or CAP patrol area is just bad planning.

Still no squad, regardless of size should just be ad libbing a mission. As a CIC of many frames I know a lot of time goes into it and you just hate to see guys just go MA on your whole plan of action. Best to make sure the CIC knows what you're doing and why. I did that the other night when I took my squad further south on our attack route than the plan called for. I made sure Turbo knew what I was doing and where I was at all times. In hindsight it was a good idea as I was able to get to the target and drop relatively unscathed. Bad bombing on our part tho saved our target.

Drano

[Kermit de frog]

If any German attack units followed the allied attack force, it just weaken the german attack force and should have helped the Allied TF defense with the better odds.  Give and take.

[Drano]

Originally posted by Kermit de frog
If any German attack units followed the allied attack force, it just weaken the german attack force and should have helped the Allied TF defense with the better odds.  Give and take.

Agreed. And that would apply to any frame filed under "stick to the assigned mission". If you're on attack--then stay focused on attacking. If you're on defense pay attention to any NME posreps from scouts or other friendlies and adjust your position accordingly. I'd say that if by chance your own attack force  happens upon an NME attack force then by all means send someone to shadow it to report its position constantly--just one will do. That way the groups actually assigned to defend the area that force is attacking have more time to get into a better position to knock them down and also (most importantly) well before they might reach their intended target. If everyone goes in to attack them on sighting then you've abandoned your own attack mission and have failed in that mission. The whole mission objectives thing is what separates this form of the game from the general MA style. Kinda removes the fun for some that are sticking to the plan when others don't. Defeats the intent of the design team who put in an awful lot of time and effort providing us with these events .


Drano

[Kermit de frog]

AKKaz
Thanks for coming to the boards and taking the time to explain your side to me.

I agree that having an RP over an enemy attack objective is a high risk tactic.  It may have worked for one group, but it obviously didn't work for your group.  Your flight path was put in a possible enemy attack path for a long duration of time from YOUR actions.

Even so, the enemy did something I've never seen before.  They had planes follow you to report your position.  The idea of dispatching some planes to discard those enemy followers wasn't an option for you?


I had to write out the orders in one night.  I had very little sleep that week and was doing my best to make sure everyone had a good chance of having fun in that FSO.  If I had more time, I would have mapped out possible enemy flight routes, like I did just now, and would have made your RP somewhere in Sector 8,9.  That way if YOU decided to make things very simple such as, flying directly to the target after you rallied with your escorts, it would not have put you in a high risk flight path.  Having 4 squadrons part of this attack force, I can understand why you'd want simplicity.  Also having the orders sent to all allied squadrons early would have possibly allowed some CO's to step up either change the RP location, or decide on a better route to the target from RP, other than a direct route from RP to the target.

A quote from the orders for the past FSO:

Offensive Ops:
BLUE FLIGHT
Target: Enemy Task Force Ships (Sector 12,8)

Arabian Knights
   Type: Bombing Run
   Plane: TBM
   Loadout: 100%, Bombs CO Choice
   Airfield: CV123
Goal:  Rally with your 2 Fighter escort squadrons & other TBM squadron, over friendly Task Force in Sector 8,7. Then head towards your target.  Get in and out quickly, while continuing to make good drops on your target of small ships.  No points given to damaged ships, only sunken ships.

TBM's upped from CV in Sector 6,8
F4U escorts upped from CV in Sector 9,5
Blue Lines are possible Enemy Flight Paths
Red X marks the target for the Allies.
GREEN line marks allied flight path required by plans.



Would you have been more happy if your RP was in Sector 8,9?
Are you blaming me 100% for the 4 squadrons sent to attack the German ships in Sector 12,8?

[Imoutfishing]

Ok I played a minor part in this FSO set so I would like to just say this as a friendship comment and hopefully something too look at in the future.

Absolute even distribution of all forces are the key to a great FSO.  Nobody want's to get jumped by over powering forces at any time.  

On the other hand we have to roll with the punches a bit.  This set of FSO's broke new ground in the way CM's can plan an event.  I for one would like to see some original thinking & suprises from time to time in the FSO's in general.

As far as the other two Allied CiC's go during this set I say they gave it their best shot much as I did.  

In short every FSO isn't a gem for every squad every time.  The ones that are keep you coming back for more

MGD

[Sled]

Originally posted by Imoutfishing

On the other hand we have to roll with the punches a bit.  This set of FSO's broke new ground in the way CM's can plan an event.  I for one would like to see some original thinking & suprises from time to time in the FSO's in general.

As far as the other two Allied CiC's go during this set I say they gave it their best shot much as I did.  

In short every FSO isn't a gem for every squad every time.  The ones that are keep you coming back for more

MGD

I couldn't agree more.

[REP0MAN]

Originally posted by Imoutfishing
Ok I played a minor part in this FSO set so I would like to just say this as a friendship comment and hopefully something too look at in the future.

Absolute even distribution of all forces are the key to a great FSO.  Nobody want's to get jumped by over powering forces at any time.  

On the other hand we have to roll with the punches a bit.  This set of FSO's broke new ground in the way CM's can plan an event.  I for one would like to see some original thinking & suprises from time to time in the FSO's in general.

As far as the other two Allied CiC's go during this set I say they gave it their best shot much as I did.  

In short every FSO isn't a gem for every squad every time.  The ones that are keep you coming back for more

MGD

Well said MGD, well said.

[daddog]

I think its perfectly OK for a squad CO to ask if he sees a potential problem with the plan that the CIC hasn't maybe thought of. In fact its probably his duty to do so.

I agree Drano. C.O.'s have saved my bacon more than once with orders I have put out and some mistakes I did not see.

[AKKaz]

I think you are taking what I am writing here in the worst possble light.  Wasn't going for blame on this thing.  Have had good FSO's and bad FSO's, they come and go depending on multiple factors.

On this one we could have gotten hit anywhere on the map, even if we took a route flying 7 sectors to the south.  I never know what the other side is doing at any givin time.  The intent of my post was of a couple of things....

First to rewrite a comment put into the wrong way by a fellow squaddie.
His comment was posted out of frustration and written in a form that was not agreeable to me.

Secondly, to also make the point that after seeing from both sides on the issue of coming into these events with low numbers versus high numbers.

Both were observations with comments, not hits on anyone for faults, bad leadership or blame of operational failures.  If takin that way by anyone, then I assure you it was not meant in that light.  But I also know that it is human nature that people tend to sway into a defense mechanism if they feel attacked.  So, I try to keep that in mind when I post anything on this board to try and keep things for open conversation.

Going back to the original threads posting, as far as the RP.  Any RP takes a chance of having is group located because of the time used at a single point to form up.  Many factors on RP alone increases chances of being located versus not having RP's.

Any squad can be located be an nmy and be followed as they are going to that point. Basically drawing the nmy to the others.
Time in one location may vary depending upon when the first group arrives until the last group arrives.  With aircraft staying in the same location and not moving goes from a roving target to a stationary one.  Stationary targets are more at risk at being found then moving ones are, naturally.

And your right, heading into target is a hit or miss on being located.  Just observation that by utilizing nmy targets as a RP increases the already higher risk factor that RP's have in the first place.  A known spot on map that is already being looked for and possibly is in the sight of the nmy adds to the risk factor.

As far as whether planes should have been dispatched to deal with ones following, was not my call.  The decision was made on what to do with them by the escort command.  Not faulting their call, what happenend is what happened.  My post was intended to bring up the fact that some items get overlooked or not thought of in the planning stages.  Not singling out this time as a problem, just using this to help make a point from an accumalation of items over past FSO's. (Hence the rearm situation as one).  No need to list them all, just so happens this was the last event inline and easier to use it in aid that point.


Sry for any confusion

[Kermit de frog]

AKkaz

I've had a few days to think about what you've said.

-I'll think about things such as having 4 or more squads together will mean that it will be harder for them to make a change of plans during the FSO event.
(This I have never even considered)

-Having an attack flight fly in a highly probably route of an incoming enemy attack route should be avoided, if time permits. (I knew better to not do that, but lack of personal time made me have a poor plan)

Thank you AKkaz <S>

And now, a video of what stress can do to me...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2c1_1189220784