Rating the Planes

[SlapShot]

Let's stay on topic.

This thread is exactly the sort of discussion I wanted to start earlier.  BnZ has already set a higher standard by giving numerical values for different aspects of aircraft performance.  Those who wish to add-on or criticize should do so in the same terminology.

I guess I've been "told" ... 

Here is one factor that needs to be added ...

26) (what HT/PYRO think*1000000)

[Anaxogoras]

You're still begging the question.  We already know what HTC thinks.  The problem is that what we've ended up with is so inconsistent that calling it the result of thought, and not guessing, is a real stretch.

[Shuffler]

You're still begging the question.  We already know what HTC thinks.  The problem is that what we've ended up with is so inconsistent that calling it the result of thought, and not guessing, is a real stretch.

So if I read this correctly.... your saying HT and pyro are thoughtless. I'd like to play your game release if it is out yet so I can compare it to AH. Then we'll discuss thoughtless processes.

[Ack-Ack]

You're still begging the question.  We already know what HTC thinks.  The problem is that what we've ended up with is so inconsistent that calling it the result of thought, and not guessing, is a real stretch.

I'm willing to bet that HiTech and Pyro will say the same about your "thoughts" on the matter.


ack-ack

[cbizkit]

You're still begging the question.  We already know what HTC thinks.  The problem is that what we've ended up with is so inconsistent that calling it the result of thought, and not guessing, is a real stretch.

I definately wouldn't say their thoughtless, just that the strength of each aircraft wasn't the only factor that went into assigning ENY values. Whether or not the strength of the aircraft should be the only or major component of assigning the ENY value is up to debate. There are other factors that could be considered such as number that saw service in the war, years it saw service for and in, MA usage levels...

Either way theres nothing wrong with putting together a chart of aircraft strengths, even if the HTC developers aren't interested in making ENY changes based on it. Others may find use of it and HTC may decide to make use of it for other purposes. But speaking as a developer myself I tend to not take user data seriously unless they have good documentation of the methods used to generate the data and proof that they were employed accurately and consistently. Otherwise the data is garbage.

I've got a lot more respect for someone who's coming up with suggestions and are willing to do the leg work to get the details of their suggestions in order so they can be presented properly. Far cry better than those that say 'this is broke, this sucks, change it!'.

[BnZ]

Numbers of plane that saw service, unfortunately that just falls on its face for the MA usage, because a plane can be rare without being particularly uber or desirable.

By this standard, the C-Hog would demand a higher perk than the Me-262, because more of the latter were built and used. That make sense to anyone?

[AcId]

I think HT and Pyro use dungeons & dragons dice to figure out what the eny's are 

[Anaxogoras]

So if I read this correctly.... your saying HT and pyro are thoughtless. I'd like to play your game release if it is out yet so I can compare it to AH. Then we'll discuss thoughtless processes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument.

[Motherland]

Numbers of plane that saw service, unfortunately that just falls on its face for the MA usage, because a plane can be rare without being particularly uber or desirable.

By this standard, the C-Hog would demand a higher perk than the Me-262, because more of the latter were built and used. That make sense to anyone?

I never said there was a standard. Buy if you look at ENY its quite obvious that HTC takes numbers into account wnen assigning perk costs. Theres no other reasoning for the the 109K being 20 ENY.

[Murdr]

The problem is that what we've ended up with is so inconsistent that calling it the result of thought, and not guessing, is a real stretch.

...Just requoting 

[BnZ]

Hey guys, didn't mean for this to become a fight, just thinking out loud here. If this is not wortwhile line of inquiry, then I respectfully withdraw it.

One thing though, yeah, HTC is awesome for creating this game, I couldn't have done it myself, lo, I am not worthy. This is all true. But you know, I gotta think of the Wright brothers. Yes they made the giant leap at Kittyhawk. Does that mean all those guys who afterwards came up with little tweaks (like moving the pitch control surfaces from the nose to tails, adding a rudder, simplifying the control system, etc) were just disrespectful cranks who did not respect the genius of the original?

[vizwhiz]

Actually, I see two very valid sides to this argument...

One is that this is a game, not a technical study by a college for publishing in a journal.  I'm sure you could take all of the factors mentioned and create a very valid rating matrix of every plane in the game list.  But that is not the point of AH2, and it needs to be remembered that this is still a game...where it is more FUN to fly certain kick-butt, high-powered, heavily-armed planes at really high speeds for some people, and more fun to others to have a very tactile experience with the airplane, more like a game of chess would be, with wit and strategy factoring in (thus the actual plane choice makes less of a difference).  In this respect, using "how many times xyz plane is picked" as a factor for ENY does make sense.  If it is more likely that people will be flying a certain plane, more of them in the air at any given time, etc. etc.

On the other hand, all of the arguments regarding the lack of consistency with "real" war-time statistics does bear consideration.  I just think it has less value than the first argument above.  I also think that, while this comparison of significant airplane features would provide a consistent ENY value rating for all the planes and new planes, I think that most pilots place less emphasis on what the actual ENY value of the plane is.

I don't know how many times, can't count, I've been blasted out of the air by a well-placed shot from a HurrC.  Then again, I've also pounced many of them in faster planes because they couldn't get out of their own way...  So I think the ENY rating has less importance and the marriage of pilot skill/plane choice really has a lot to do with it.  I hate Hogs, because you can't see out the back of them...but then I get killed by them all the time too...so the ENY of my plane doesn't help me, and my dislike for the other plane has nothing to do with the ENY of that plane.

Great topic, btw.

[NoBaddy]

BnZ...don't sweat the small stuff. 

What you, perhaps, fail to understand ( as do others that have posted here) is that the ENY/perk system is not intended to be "objective". It is intended as a tool for HTC to control (as painlessly as possible) how the game is played in the MA's. In many cases, the rationale behind a perk or ENY value has been prevent dominant late war planes from flooding the arenas. Other cases have been because of the fact that certain planes were only produced in small numbers. In one case that I know of, the C-hog, a plane received a low perk because it was dominating the arena.

My point is that you can continue to attempt to assign values to each planes attributes in hopes of creating an "objective system" to deal with ENY/perk issues. I'm sure that, at the same time, HTC will continue to do what they have been doing...regardless. 

[TexMurphy]

One thing that I do think is important to survivability of a plane is physical size of the plane. A small target like a 109 or a Yak is harder to hit when flown evasivly then a 38 or a Mossie.

[BnZ]

BnZ...don't sweat the small stuff. 

 In many cases, the rationale behind a perk or ENY value has been prevent dominant late war planes from flooding the arenas.

Okay, this brings us back to the part I don't understand. Why then, is something like the 190D9's ENY so high? (You got the trifecta of late-war, powerful, and somewhat rare going there.) And why is the 109K's eny (which is at least the equal of the D9 as a MA plane, and much superior in a 1v1 combat) even higher?

Lets say the ENY is high on your side because of player numbers...you can fly a Jug (except the N, the only one with really competitive speed at MA alts), you can fly a P-51B (a 1943 airplane that most can't kill in easily.) Or you can fly the latest, greatest, and most bestial FW190 and ME109s ever built, not to mention the fairly powerful Yak...huh?