OK,enuff with the furballers mentality!

[Murdr]

I've been acused of being a 'hacker' for supposedly "out turning" a la7 with a Dora. 

I really can't fault Yenny for choosing not to engage it what he feels is a "no win".  I'll do exactly the same.  Reset the fight to a point where I have a chance, and re-engage.  The tipping point, or the thing the irks people is when said players idea of "resetting the fight", is consistantly waiting until the other guy is in a "no win" situation before they decide to engage.

Here's where I part ways with some posters.  There is an underlying sense that angles fighting is everything, and E fighting is whimpy.  The fact is both are valid fudamentals of BFM, and either are appropriate depending on the situation at hand.  It would be silly for a football team to rely solely on either their passing or running game.  Some teams tend to play to their strong suit, but relying just on one or the other is one dimentional.  Same with BFM, and it's just as silly to expect someone to angles fight when it is completely inappropriate for that situation.

[DoNKeY]

So you're advocating that he do a maneuver that will lead to his death 10% of the time, vs. an extension that will lead to his death 0% of the time? 

Yes, because whether he lives or dies, he learns a lot more (even if it's learning something that doesn't work) then just 'extending.'  It's easy to play it safe and extend, blaming the lack of initiative on relative plane match ups.  You're not going to learn unless you put yourself in unfamiliar/uncomfortable/difficult situations.  It's the same thing when 'they' say fight people better then you or else you will never get better.  I could go beat up on 2 weekers and feel good about my 'abilities,' or I could go battle the barbossas, ded's, bat's, m00ts and other Kennel guys (sorry if I didn't name ya, blanking here ) and get spanked, but I would actually learn something.  Putting your ego aside is the most important thing when learning.  You have to go past 'playing it safe.'

donkey

[Yenny]

I'd turnfight when I have to, if the spit is at 400 i'd probably have to scissor and try to force an over shot, other wise i'll just book it. Equal skill spit pilot would have a 99% chance to slaughter a D9 in that situation.

[Anaxogoras]

Yes, because whether he lives or dies, he learns a lot more (even if it's learning something that doesn't work) then just 'extending.'  It's easy to play it safe and extend, blaming the lack of initiative on relative plane match ups.  You're not going to learn unless you put yourself in unfamiliar/uncomfortable/difficult situations.  It's the same thing when 'they' say fight people better then you or else you will never get better.  I could go beat up on 2 weekers and feel good about my 'abilities,' or I could go battle the barbossas, ded's, bat's, m00ts and other Kennel guys (sorry if I didn't name ya, blanking here ) and get spanked, but I would actually learn something.  Putting your ego aside is the most important thing when learning.  You have to go past 'playing it safe.'

donkey

You didn't read my whole post.  The kind of situations where it is better to scissor occur frequently enough already so that it's not necessary to do it at a bad time.  Sure, you can practice your scissors when it would be better to something else, but that's little different from extending when it's time to attack for the sake of practicing self-discipline.

edit: same reply for moot.

Nothing is better for learning ACM than to practice the right maneuver at the right time.

[gpwurzel]

Meh, I'll fight any of ya, any time, any place. I wont win (virtually never anyway), but thats how I'm learning what does and doesn't work. Each fight is different, and to me, thats what keeps me coming back (even though I've not been playing that long). I dont care if you bnz me, turn with me, take me into the verticals, whatever - each time I'm learning (even tho I'm old and it takes a lot of time). Each to their own tho, its your money to have fun with - do what suits you.

Just my 0.00002p worth. Ymmv,


Wurzel

[DoNKeY]

No I did read it.  The point I was making though is that if he (and I should try to make this a generalized statement) already thinks he's in deep trouble with a spit 800 off, why not get more practice at trying to reverse them instead of extending and taking the easier/safer way out?  That way he/they will have that much more practice, get them to a level of proficiency much, much faster.  I mean I really don't see what the big deal of 'dying' is in this game.  You have unlimited lives and unlimited planes, so you'd probably be better off flying with the hoard if you wanted to live.  You break turn right and die to the spit.  Ok, now you think, hmmm.  Next time you break turn but you add some element of vertical and reverse back.  You die a little less.  You keep doing that until you learn what works and what doesn't.  You can't get to that point by going straight forward with WEP on and thinking next time I'll try to reverse him and see what happens. 

Nothing is better for learning ACM than to practice the right maneuver at the right time.

I agree with you to some extent, but not 100%.  Given some situation in which a high yo-yo would be appropriate, it's also important to try other manouvers just to see the outcome.  What makes the high yo-yo the 'right' move there?  Seeing how different maneuvers stack up in the same situation, and the outcome of that particular choice, is also vital to understanding and developing a good ACM sense (IMHO).  It may not be the right time to practice that particular move, but it's all geared towards the bigger picture of learning ACM.  It may not be the right time for him to try and reverse the spit, but it's all towards getting better.

donkey

[moot]

Anax it's you that's not following the thread. You misread my previous posts and read different arguments in replies where I just rephrase the same arguments, and now you're doing it again.
I said if the spit is 800 out or so, it's better to fight than just run, whatever the method chosen to counter-attack, not that scissors are the only answer in that specific situation.  Yenny says in the first post that a spit 800 on his D9's six is a 95%+ probability he's dead soon, and says it's worth running rather than fighting in that situation, and I disagreed.  In the following post he changes it to 400 yards, which is a different story; but in that case the use of running is even more reduced.

The real point to be made in this thread is that too many players are doing as Murdr describes here: " The tipping point, or the thing the irks people is when said players idea of "resetting the fight", is consistantly waiting until the other guy is in a "no win" situation before they decide to engage."

I don't completely agree with the rest of his repy, but that one point is exactly what is wrong with the way most players play the game and it's what you and a few others keep not understanding.  

[Anaxogoras]

Donkey, I respect what you have to say and will take it into consideration.  I guess where we differ is over the death thing.

Moot, it's true that I wasn't commenting on what yenny said.  I was replying to what you said about my post

They aren't gods, they simply tried it again and again, until they could consistently do it just right.  So it makes sense to encourage people to keep trying, rather than encourage them to fill their 15 bucks' worth with a void of ACM.

because it seemed to me that you did not acknowledge my claim that there are plenty of opportunities to practice reversals in the 190 at the right time, rather than forcing it at the wrong time.

[Yenny]

Years and years playin AW and flyin RL, I have a pretty good understandin of ACM, but the game mechanic for AH i don't quiet get it down yet, such as which speed to drop flap etc. For D9 though I doubt it matters much. And usually when i'm in trouble it's not 1 behind me =) it's about a horde of baddies. If it's one usually my wingman would force him to break np.

[DoNKeY]

Donkey, I respect what you have to say and will take it into consideration.  I guess where we differ is over the death thing.

<S>, you make some good points (and no hard feelings ).  Just out of curiousity, where do you stand on the death thing.  To many threads and things to keep track of, you know .

donkey

[DrDea]

 Who cares.Fly how you want.If your gonna fly a fighter than FIGHT for cod's sake.If your gonna bomb stuff BOMB stuff.Its your money.If your gonna fly like a dweeb on either side of the coin dont expect a lot of REspect.Planes are free for the most part.Dont be afraid to lose a few while learning.

[Yenny]

Wolfpack BnZ all the way =) I usually don't fly solo. Always have 1 or 4 wingman in a group of D9s. So I rarely get in situations where I need to turnfight w/ D9. But when I do though I usually get slaughter no matter what I pull, i usually use my speed to bug out if it gets ugly and i'm solo. If any of you guys are good D9 pilots though and know how to turn fight it, I'd love to take the tip!. Just can't say it and not back it up though. Not many players are at the caliber that we are in understandin ACM.

[PFactorDave]

Meh, I'll fight any of ya, any time, any place. I wont win (virtually never anyway), but thats how I'm learning what does and doesn't work. Each fight is different, and to me, thats what keeps me coming back (even though I've not been playing that long). I dont care if you bnz me, turn with me, take me into the verticals, whatever - each time I'm learning (even tho I'm old and it takes a lot of time).

This pretty much sums up my current mind set.

[Novice3]

Like yenny said above plz do come forward with how to beat spit 16 on your six in a dora. Make a film write up or whatever. I first am willing to learn and fly with some that can out turn la spit and  rest of "tard "planes.

 

[mechanic]

flying a Dora is your mistake.  why fly it if you cannot fly it vs the common enemy? the only reason i can think of is an excuse not to fight.

Top 5 Dweeb Planes 2008:

1: spit16

2: p51D

3: 190D9

4: la7

5: tempest


yes thats right, the dora is way up there in the 'tard' plane ranks.