Author Topic: Air Force ROTC  (Read 1729 times)

Offline DoNKeY

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2008, 09:36:28 AM »
A few questions (toonces, or whoever) when you have the time.  First, what do you fly, and was it competitive or like you said, where basically they needed pilots and were happy to get you?

Second, mind sharing a few sentences about what life has been like so far in the Navy for you, especially dealing with aviation part of it?


Right now, I'm considering getting my college degree without joining an ROTC program.  That way I can really focus on my grades and then go over my options once I get my degree.  From there I have two choices.  Either continue living the civilian life and go to work as a engineer, or go to Officer Training School, or what ever each program is called for whatever branch. 

I don't want to fly helicopters, and I don't want to join the Army, so right now I'm looking at either the Air Force, Navy, or Marine aviation.  If I had my dream choice, it would be flying fighters in the Air Force, with Navy being second choice.  (Is the Marines more in support of ground troops then A2A?  But I really want to earn my wings, and don't mind going Navy or Marine if that bettered my chances of getting in the cockpit, as I'm think that the Air Force would be the most competitive of the three to get a fighter slot.  Right?

Right now, I'm wondering just what are the differences between being a pilot in the Navy verses the Marines?

Also, I'll continue to search google, etc, but does anyone know of a good site that kind of compares the three side by side? 

donkey

PS:  Thanks for all of the help so far guys, appreciate it.

Oh, and forgot to add, that just as a little indication, I'm a senior right now with a 4.17 GPA, with AP Calculus, AP English, and AP Biology being my hardest classes (Advanced Drama, Civics/Econ, and psychology being the other three).
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Offline toonces3

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2008, 12:31:29 PM »
I flew P-3 Orions.  When I applied to the Navy, I was lucky- they needed pilots.  The Navy had cut pilot slots too far and they had a deficit of pilots when I applied.  Had they been fat on pilots I doubt I would have gotten in- my college grades were terrible.  As far as competitiveness, one thing you have to get used to from the get go is that you're going to be competing from day 1 if your goal is to fly, and continue to fly, jets.

When you get to OCS, you'll already have a pilot or NFO slot, so there's no competition on that score.  Once you get accepted to OCS, unless you're a total flake, getting to Pensacola should be almost guaranteed.  A few folks got clipped by medical- you can pass all the physicals you want before OCS, but the one they give you AT OCS is the one that counts.  They are very, very thorough and absolutely ruthless in dropping you from aviation if you don't pass the physical.  I got popped twice- once for my vision even though I was 20/20 in my pre-OCS physical, and a few times for my height.  I got re-tested on vision and passed.  I also got measured about 30 different ways and barely, I mean exactly, passed the height requirements (almost lost on the knee to butt measurement).  One woman who was the same height as me didn't pass that length test and was dropped.  Another guy had some heart murmur or sound or something that was enough that they dropped him.  The woman DOR'd, the guy changed to intel.

When I reported to flight school, I got measured again. Basically they put me in a cockpit of each plane in training (man, that T-2 fit like a glove!) and then made me touch all the buttons and stuff.  I couldn't full deflect the rudders in the T-44 so I fudged it by scooting forward a bit and saying I could get full deflection when I couldn't.  In the T-34, they put a helmet bag 50 feet in front of the plane and you had to be able to see it from the cockpit.  Of course I couldn't see it, but I said I could ;)  When I eventually got assigned to P-3s and had to fly T-44s in training I used to fly with my NATOPS manual behind my back to scoot me forward enough in the seat to fully push the rudder pedals.

Once you get to flight school, it is very competitive.  In order to qualify to select jets, you have to have 'jet grades'.  When you do a flight in primary flight school, you get graded afterwards on 20 or 30 criteria, below average, average, or above average.  A good flight will net you a single above average (or one more above than below), a great flight is two aboves.  Over all the flights you add up all your aboves (think of it like a K/D ratio) and they average all the aboves for the last 90 guys to graduate.  Say the average number of aboves for a graduating pilot is 30.  To qualify for jets you have to be in the top 50%- so you'd have to have 31+.  If you have 30 or less, you have to select from other platforms than jets (P-3, E-2, helos).  Right from the beginning, then, you are competing for a 50/50 chance to even ask for jets.  

Say you graduate, and you have jet grades, say 37 aboves.  Then they take all the guys graduating that week from all the training squadrons and compare those guys against each other.  Say there's 4 guys graduating that week with jet grades.  There are two jet slots available that week.  Well, they go to the guy with the highest average and see what his first choice is.  If it's jets, he gets them.  Then they go to #2.  He wants jets, he gets them.  #3 wants jets, but all the jet slots are taken.  He gets his second choice.  #4 wants jets, but they're taken.  He wants P-3s second, but they're taken.  There are no E-2 slots that week.  So #4 (and anyone below him) goes helos, even if he was way above average.

This is sort of what happened to me.  I graduated #1 in Corpus Christi my week, but there were no jet slots at all available so I got my #2 choice by default.  Some weeks everyone got jets, some weeks nobody got jets.  So, it's competitive, but then the needs of the Navy always take precedence.

Ok, so say you got P-3s.  You go to advanced flight training and it starts all over again.  You have your heart set on being detailed to a P-3 squadron in Jacksonville.  So, you go through advanced and then they rank everyone against each other and they assign squadrons  based on what you want based on your rank.  The first guy gets what he wants, the last guy gets whatever's left, and the middle guys fall out somewhere in between.

Ok, now you report to your squadron.  Well, every year you get a fitness report- like a report card on your performance.  You're ranked against everyone in your squadron in the same paygrade.  You can get a promotable, must promote, or early promote (best).  But, only 10% of the people ranked can get an EP.  So, you're competing against your peers from day 1 to be ranked in that top 10%.  When it comes time for orders, the detailer is going to look at what you want, and how you're ranked against your peers and that will determine where you go.

When it comes time for promotion above O-3, your file goes in front of a promotion board.  There they look at your total fitness reports and compare them to everyone in the Navy in your paygrade (this is simplified a bit, there's other factors like type of duty, etc. that factor in).  If they can promote 50% of the Lieutenants then you get ranked and promoted if you're in the top 50%....

So, are you starting to see a pattern here?  From day 1 you'll be competing for everything in the military.  You're always being compared to your peers.  Some of it is politics, some of it is being the 'favorite' and some of it (not much in P-3s unfortunately) is just plain being good at your job.  My strategy has always been to just do as well as I can and let everything fall out where it does.

"And I got my  :rocklying problem fix but my voice is going to inplode your head" -Kennyhayes

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Offline toonces3

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2008, 12:34:02 PM »
Ok, long answer, but the insight is hopefully useful.

How do I feel about aviation?

I loved flying planes.  Look, being paid to fly is just plain cool.  Everytime I landed I sort of felt like I had scammed the world a little bit...like I'm driving home after a flight and I look at all these people doing there regular jobs and I think, "Man, while you guys were all working I was up there flying today."  When I got assigned to P-3s I broke down and cried; I wanted to be a fighter pilot since I was a small kid.  But I came to love the Orion and you'll come to love any plane you fly.  Flying the P-3 was a great experience- you can gas that plane up, fly from Washington to San Diego, do ASW for a couple of hours, and then fly home all on a single tank of gas.  I've flown in combat missions.  I've done some cool things, flown on alot of subs, and seen much of the world.

The downside is that you don't spend all your time flying.  The Navy doesn't want pilots, it wants leaders.  The most flying you'll do is flight school and your first couple of deployments.  After that, your pilot time gets smaller.  As you get more senior you get more ground responsibilities and less flying time.  That's why the Navy offers such huge incentives to pilots at their get out point.  The guys know that if they stay in they're flying days are limited, and most bail for the airlines to stay in the cockpit.

My personal story (very short version) is that the P-3 is getting phased out and I knew the promotion opportunities in the community were going to be limited.  So, I stopped flying a few years ago and changed into the oceanography community.  I love studying the ocean as much as I love flying, so for me this has been an incredible experience.

I've been very fortunate because the Navy has paid me to fulfill the only things I ever wanted to do as an adult- fly planes and study the ocean.  The downside is alot of time away from home and family.  The downside is that I have little say in where I go and what I do (I'm getting sent to Norfolk next, a place I despise).  The upside is that I make alot of money and I am building a great retirement, all to do the job I want to do with people I enjoy working with.  I've always been into the mission of the military, playing wargames and such growing up, so to do it for real is just a lot of fun.  It's one thing to hunt subs on a computer game, and it's another thing entirely to do it for real- what other job can you do that in?

Marines vs. Navy vs. Airforce:
Just my opinions here.  Marines always seeem to me to be really into being Marines.  The first thing you do out of Marine OCS is go to Basic School for a year to do grunt stuff.  Everything in the Marines is geared to that mentality.  Marines fly alot of helos and Harriers, but their Hornets deploy on CVNs just like Navy jets.  The mentality is different though. 

Air Force vs. Navy:
Every Navy plane has a NATOPS manual with all the procedures for the plane in it.  The Navy rule is "You can't do it if it's prohibited in NATOPS."
Every Air Force plane has their equivalent and the Air Force rule is "You can't do it if the manual doesn't say you can do it."

It's a subtle difference, but it is important.  The Navy seems to encourage more independence, the Air Force encourages more by the numbers. 

I've heard that the Navy actually has more planes than the AF, or burns more hours or more gas or something like that.  The USAF isn't necessarily the best  bet for flying a plane among the services.  But, the AF has alot more interesting planes to fly in my opinion.  The Navy seems to view flying almost as a collateral duty; the USAF seems to view flying as THE job.  I don't know any AF pilots, so I could be wrong, but I would think that flying for the AF is more rewarding career wise than the Navy.  But, the Navy has cooler uniforms, and flying off the boat is pretty awesome (of course I picked about the only Navy plane that doesn't do that...)

Final thoughts:
Waiting until you're ready to graduate to apply to OCS is a risky move.  You'll be at the whim of whether or not the services need pilots at that time.  ROTC is also a risky move because there are no guarantees you'll get a pilot slot even if you have good grades.

Having said that, though, there's almost no downside, in my opinion, to doing a few years in the military as an officer out of college.  Getting some military experience will almost certainly open up doors for you, and the GI Bill benefits are outstanding.  Once you get your foot in the door, there are a ton of opportunities.

Ultimately, you should be asking yourself what your motivation is to explore the military.  The path to the front seat of a Hornet is littered with folks that tried and failed:  people that applied but weren't accepted into the military, people who got in but didn't do well enough for a pilot slot, people that attrited out of flight school physically or academically, people that did well enough but there were no jets available, then people that got to jets but attrited out of there, and so on.  If it were easy, everyone would do it.  But, if your goal is to fly, and you understand that there are no guarantees but you're prepared to give 110% anyway, then I say go for it.  It's better to try and fail then never try at all.

Lastly, you might want to look into the service academies.  With your grades, you are probably very competitive for that.

Hope I didn't bore you to tears with the overly long post.
<S>
Toonces
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Offline toonces3

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2008, 12:47:59 PM »
A little motivation for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlFPDTgyQf0

I'll tell you what, if I could do it all over again and I could choose between being a P-3 pilot, or an F-14/F-18 RIO, I'd take the backseat in a second.

Don't let the crappy Top Gun music throw you- it gets better quickly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx3Vjkqz9V8&feature=related
"And I got my  :rocklying problem fix but my voice is going to inplode your head" -Kennyhayes

"My thread is forum gold, it should be melted down, turned into minature f/a-18 fighter jets and handed out to everyone who participated." -Thrila

Offline DoNKeY

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2008, 06:53:42 PM »
Wow, toonces, thanks for that, it was great!

Regarding the various academies, I'm sure I've already missed the deadlines this year, and I'm already accepted to Cal Poly, SLO under early acceptance.  Add to that, the only ROTC program (either located on campus or that is part of a cross-town program) is Army ROTC, which I have no desire to do. 

So for me, if I wanted to join, the only way would really be OCS, and it's really no more risky then ROTC, right?

I've always loved the Hornet, but I've always liked the Air Force.  My main dream though is to really just fly (jets preferably  :D), but I also understand that things don't always work out for people.  I guess at the least I'll have a chance to study hard, review my options for AF/Navy, and have time to think about it.

Obviously it would just plain suck to go through all of that and not get a slot, but I guess that's the way life is sometimes...

Thanks for all the great info.

donkey

 :salute 
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Offline SuperbKi11er

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2008, 06:55:59 PM »
DOes anyone know if the coast guard have an ROTC program? i want  to go Coast Guard.
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Offline Whitten

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2008, 01:54:10 PM »
Quote
So for me, if I wanted to join, the only way would really be OCS, and it's really no more risky then ROTC, right?

Actually it’s a lot more risky than ROTC. I know in the Air Force, the greatest number of pilot slots go to the academy students, the next greatest goes to the ROTC students and only a handful goes to OTS graduates (that is if you can even get into OTS). The Air Force commissions most of its officers through ROTC not OTS so the slots are limited and even getting in can be a problem, much less obtaining a pilot slot at the same time.

Personally if I were you I’d just go to a college or university that offers AFROTC or NROTC in the first place but if it’s too late and you already accepted admission into a school that doesn’t offer it, then you can always transfer after the fall semester. 

Or one other option you have if you want to go the Air Force route without joining AFROTC is to enlist in the Air National Guard, serve your time while in school, then get your commission after you graduate. You’d then be able to apply for a pilot slot when one opens up at your particular Guard unit. Typically Guard units prefer giving their slots to prior enlistees. But then again you might not be the only prior enlistee competing for the same slot.
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Offline Whitten

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2008, 01:57:43 PM »
Quote
DOes anyone know if the coast guard have an ROTC program? i want  to go Coast Guard.

No the Coast Guard doesn’t have a ROTC program but they have a bunch of other great programs that would be worth checking out. You can probably find all the information you’re looking for right on their homepage.
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Offline toonces3

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2008, 03:46:44 PM »
I was gonna PM this, but since the thread is back up here is what I was going to say:

You (Donkey) definately need to call and talk to a recruiter if you're even remotely serious about joining the military.  Talk to a recruiter about officer programs, not enlisting. 

The Navy, and probably the Air Force, have alot of different programs.  We're just scratching the surface here.  For example, you could go to SLO for a year and transfer to another school that has a NROTC program with a 3-year contract.  Most of your classes your first year should be general education and you should be able to transfer them all with no problem, especially if you stay in the same major.  I don't know if AFROTC offers 3 years or not, but really you need to talk to a USAF recruiter to get specifics.  The Navy may have a 2-year program as well, so you really aren't too late if that's what you think.  If your grades are awesome after your first year, this could be a good way to enter NROTC knowing how you handle college level classes and getting an idea of how competitive you are GPA-wise. 

With respect to USAF OTS, I called the USAF recruiter right before I called the Navy recruiter, and the USAF had 50 Nav slots and 1 pilot slot for the ENTIRE country for the year.  Not good odds at all.  I have no idea what it is now, which is another reason to talk to a recruiter.

Finally, don't rule out the service academies.  I don't know if they'll let you in after you start school somewhere else, but since alot of students attend a year of prep school before reporting to the Naval Academy, I wouldn't be surprised if they can let you in if you're grades are awesome after a year somewhere else...

"And I got my  :rocklying problem fix but my voice is going to inplode your head" -Kennyhayes

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Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2008, 04:32:27 PM »

You (Donkey) definately need to call and talk to a recruiter if you're even remotely serious about joining the military.  Talk to a recruiter about officer programs, not enlisting. 

As a side note to this, it was my experience that the initial calls to enlisted recruiters about officer information were almost always met with variations of "What in the hell do you want to be an officer for?  You want to sit behind a desk...?  No, no, no, THIS is what you want!  Enlist!  Kill!  Tanks!  Guns!  Kaboom!  Officers are weenies with pens!"

I dont know what some of the other branches call them, but the USMC has what are called OSO's (Officer Selection Officer's).  Recruiters, yes, but only for officer candidates and with far less car salesman BS.  They dont really need to sell the service because the people who apply for entry into the program want to get in far more than the OSO needs them in.  Besides that, its a selection process which, between medical tests, aptitude tests, transcripts, physical tests and the ultimate approval or denial determination from a voting body, takes months.  You cant just walk in, sign a few papers, take the ASVAB and get a ship out date and enlistment bonus.  It took a full 12 months from the time I submitted my initial application for my selection to be approved.

Calling an OSO (or whatever the USAF equivalent is) means you'll get officer-specific information and a straight story on what to expect.  Mine was invaluable in terms of information, preparation and general assistance.  He used to drive 45 minutes from his office to my school to run with me once every week for six months prior to my ship date.  If he couldnt make it, he'd send his Gunny, who was an equally awesome human being.  How many "recruiters" do stuff like that?

Now don't get me wrong, they have quotas to fill, but they don't need to try very hard at all since the number of people who apply is probably close to double the number who are ultimately selected from any one geographical office.

If you want to go officer, I strongly recommend that the only reason you call an enlistment office is to get a telephone number for the selection officer in the area.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 04:38:22 PM by Saurdaukar »

Offline Bosco123

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2008, 05:43:39 PM »
The air Force, Chairforce :D
Right now i'm in Army JROTC in high school and right now im still uncertin weather I should join the Marines or the Airfore, personally everyone tells me to join the Airfore, even my friend who is in the Marines right now.
Right now im sitting here with a ROTC scholorship already to help me to what college I want to go to right now. I havn't looked for what college I want to go to yet either.
If you go into the AFROTC program in college and you decide to go into the airforce, your going to go in right as an officer. Personally that would be the way that I would go. More money and a better job. Of course when I go in, im going in as a pilot so...
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Offline Whitten

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2008, 06:09:37 PM »
Toons and Saurdaukar are right that enlisting first probably isn’t the ideal way to go about getting a commission. There are plenty of risks involved and like every method of earning a pilot slot, it’s not 100% guaranteed. Though, it’s probably better for you to know ALL your options then decide which works best for you personally. Enlisting in the ANG of Air Force Reserves can potentially open up some doors for you especially if ROTC isn’t an option.

Just consider these facts from the Air Force OTS website:

“The service is continuing to encourage enlisted airmen who can achieve academic requirements and have leadership potential to seek commissions through ROTC, Officer Training School or the Air Force Academy.”

“Of the Air Force’s approximately 72,400 officers, about 20 percent were once enlisted.”

“The fact that Airmen have the dedication to earn a commission is a good indication that they will do well as officers and likely won’t be among those who will be asked to leave (OTS).”

“By percentage, an airman has a better chance at landing an aircrew position. In 2005, 84 percent of the enlisted airmen seeking OTS commissions as navigators were selected. The selection rate for OTS pilots was 63 percent and 71 percent for OTS air battle managers.”

And wantscheck.com has a whole section dedicated to getting a pilot slot with the ANG and they state that:

“More people apply than are accepted to interview. The breakdown is typically 10% of applicants will be asked to interview. From this interview, 1 or 2 applicants are selected to attend UPT (Undergraduate Pilot Training) and 1 or 2 alternates will be chosen should any problems occur with the primary selects.”

“Qualified enlisted persons in the unit are often guaranteed an interview.”

Personally speaking, if I could go back in time knowing what I know now, I would have enlisted in the ANG right out of high school and served simultaneously while attending college and being enrolled in AFROTC. But that’s just me.
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Offline toonces3

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2008, 07:27:08 PM »
Saurdaker said precisely what I was trying to say.  Talk to an officer programs recruiter- not an enlisted recruiter. 

"And I got my  :rocklying problem fix but my voice is going to inplode your head" -Kennyhayes

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Offline DoNKeY

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Re: Air Force ROTC
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2008, 10:29:35 AM »
Alright, thanks guys for all the help. I'll talk to someone and make sure there's absolutely no chance that I can get into a cross-town ROTC program.

donkey
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