Author Topic: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5  (Read 3790 times)

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2008, 09:49:25 PM »
Wasn't in one of the early raids that 13 He177s were tasked with a mission and only 4 made it to the target area and only 1 dropped its bombs? All the other had to abort due to mechanical troubles.

Jan 21/22
He177 1/KG40 2x2500 kg bombs > 5000kg

Feb24/25
He 177 2/KG100 4x1000kg HE > 4000kg

April18/19
He177 3/KG100 12x 250kg HE > 3000kg

The raids were dismal failures, but no, they didn't abort due to "mechanical troubles", but due to operational troubles. It affected the entire bomber force not just the Greifs.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2008, 09:53:00 PM »
My mistake. What was the purpose of your post then?

Additional information.
Not everyone reading this thread is aware that the basic designs of the B17 and He 177 were from different generations.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 09:54:51 PM by Lusche »
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2008, 09:58:55 PM »
One burst a tire on take off. The other 8 returned due to over heating and burning engines. Those are strange operational troubles indeed. One was shot down by NFs.

Major General Pelz on the Feb 13 mission.

Then there is the question, why did the bomb load decrease so much?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 10:00:48 PM by MiloMorai »

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2008, 10:06:31 PM »
Additional information.
Not everyone reading this thread is aware that the basic designs of the B17 and He 177 were from different generations.

Ok. Irrelevant information, but thanks anyway.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2008, 10:09:28 PM »
One burst a tire on take off. The other 8 returned due to over heating and burning engines. Those are strange operational troubles indeed. One was shot down by NFs.

Major General Pelz on the Feb 13 mission.

Then there is the question, why did the bomb load decrease so much?

I don't know where you get your information, so I can't comment on it. It will have to stand on your merit alone. As for the decreasing bomb load I guess 12 x 250 kg bombs are more efficient for terror bombing than 2 x 2500 kg.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2008, 10:11:42 PM »
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2008, 10:21:03 PM »
Look Lusche ... if you want to discuss how much better the B-17 was or how far ahead of its time it was then please start your own thread. Don't hijack this one. Please?
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2008, 10:32:32 PM »
Look Lusche ... if you want to discuss how much better the B-17 was or how far ahead of its time it was then please start your own thread. Don't hijack this one. Please?

You are suffering from paranoia.
If I had any intention of doing that, I would have stated it. Don't read into my postings what's not there. Nowhere I say anything about the B17 being "better" or ahead of its time.
In fact, you are now actually hijacking your own thread in a way ;)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 10:35:04 PM by Lusche »
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2008, 10:36:22 PM »
Ok, I'll bite. Please explain how this...


These are the contemporaries of the B-17:

(Image removed from quote.)
Ju-89 (1937)

(Image removed from quote.)
Do-19 (1936)

The first He 177 had it's maiden flight in November 39, more than four years after the B-17.


... has anything to do with whether or not the He 177 was a capable heavy bomber?
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2008, 10:43:20 PM »
 :rofl :aok

You are still hijacking your own thread.. amazing but very funny.
I stated my reasons for posting that already. I'm not let you drag this now into a silly wrestling match.
Someone else should now post something about the He 177 to get you back on track...  :D
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2008, 10:47:11 PM »
That's what I thought. It had nothing to do with this thread. It was irrelevant. Thank you for participating. :)
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline Banshee7

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2008, 10:49:12 PM »
isn't this thread comparing the B-17G with a German bomber Lumpy?  Lusche is right (as always :D)

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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2008, 10:53:12 PM »
No, but you're excused for thinking that. This thread is about Germany having a capable heavy bomber in WWII, comparing it to the B-17G to prove that it was capable. Unless Lusche or yourself are arguing that the B-17G was not a capable heavy bomber in 1943-44?
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2008, 10:55:20 PM »
i Lusche is right (as always :D)

I am defenitely and verifiable NOT always right. Not even almost.  I could dig up a few threads....  :o
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2008, 11:54:21 PM »
One burst a tire on take off. The other 8 returned due to over heating and burning engines. Those are strange operational troubles indeed. One was shot down by NFs.

Major General Pelz on the Feb 13 mission.

Then there is the question, why did the bomb load decrease so much?

It seems that mission has been discussed over at the Axis History Forum.

"In I./KG100 reports these aircrafts appear as A-3 not A-5. Also they were in the process of moving in France for the Steinbock raids, 3./KG100 began to move from Lechfeld to Chateaudun 3 weeks prior this raid, 2./KG100 started to move the week before the raid. The maintenance facilities required to operate He-177 were still to come, prior this move only one He-177 squad operated from Chateaudun. In plus all the He-177 that 2. and 3./KG100 had were new builds, not yet flown in combat, so the manufacturing defects were yet to be discovered. I'm not surprised that they didn't flew well on the first mission and most aborted it.

In general bombers had much stricter safety requirements than fighters, which translated in many aborted missions. For example in average USAAF fighters had 1 inefective sortie in 15-20 sorties flown, USAAF bombers on the other hand had 1 aborted sortie in 5 flown, and some even 1 in 3! When one bomber had problems all its squad mates had to check for the same problems, because they could be affected by the same maitenance deficiencies common to the squad. There are many such instances. I can give you an example from B-29 missions against Japan:

92 plane leave India
79 reach China
75 dispatched for mission
68 leave China
47 reach the target
1 single bomb managed to fall somewhere near the target"



Same guy on He 177A-5's "serious problems":

"I completely disagree with this affirmation. Although it is often mentioned in the old literature, it never comes with a satisfactory prove (all they bring in their support are some single instances when He-177 performed badly). They say that He-177 was marred by mechanical failures, although their never succeed in explaining why the crews loved the aircraft. Where they suicidal? Of course not. If you look at the service stats, you'll see that the expected losses in accidents was lower than on most other types serving with LW, and even those caused by the enemy action were low although most of the time they performed extremely dangerous antishipping missions. I already gave those stats in another thread, they are eye opening."

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=532279
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P