Real Trouble....

[Sunchaser]

....is an understatement.

First, thanks go to the other 9 B17 pilots, great job following a poor lead.
You all kept good formation in spite of poor comms from me and as we turned at the IP 8 of the 10 were inside 1.5K and most were inside 1K.

Second, WTG Beefcake, I think you were the only B17 to bomb the tgt, apologies if someone else made it also.

Third, I thought this was a 1 life event but it seems the Axis were allowed to replane, why please?

Forth, well done Axis forces, you hit us right after we had turned into the target and I was down at least 5 miles from the drop point.

Fifth, I need one.

Sixth, Escorts.... a bit late but thanks for trying.

I missed the second frame if there was one, I was pouting in the infirmery.

One thing I would suggest is that those interested in flying these events take a few minutes at the events forum to familairize themselves with what the mission is.
It does not take long and alleviates a lot of early confusion.

Good one all concerned.



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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?

[Frodo]

Yes I had fun but also have some concerns.

Icons were set way too far out.They were farther than the main arena icons.Reduced icons make for a much better immersion factor I think.

Some LW guys were whining for the d9 Dora instead of the a8 before launch.Not sure if they got them as I fought mostly 109's?If they did get doras this is wrong.Stick to the setup for the scenario or get it changed beforehand.

This is supposed to be a 1 life event and allowing people to up in 152's after getting killed is also wrong,even though I had fun fighting them.

Great job by the CM's in runnning these but the way this one was handled left a lot to be desired.

Would like to know from the CM why things were changed so much in this one?No matter how much .... whines you should stick to the setup of the scenario!

Frodo

[Daniko]

I had a great time in this scenerio, . . and did uhh particularly well .. . I Salute both sides for a great fight!!

We all upped in 190a8's and 109g10's exactly as the rules stipulated, and it happened through mission planner so we were all on the same wave length. ...

after we encountered the first band of p51's the folks who got shot down on our side were allowed to re-up in a 190d9, but only for that few minutes, .. . i think the reason this happened was that  we made the point that the p51's were restricted by rules to be within visual range of the b17's, but there were no b17's in the area.   Only a few people actually upped in a d9 at this point..   i scored all 4 kills in the original g10, and was fighting right up till i ran out of ammo and fuel, . .  was a GREAT battle with you Storm, i appreciate such fun!!!   the Ta152 thing didn't happen until the frame was considered to be over i think.... or until the second frame, which i get the impression is less official ...,
anyway, that's my experience of the thing, . ..and i can tell ya i was scarred in my 109 comin into the formation of b17's with what seemed like 25 p51's all around me, and very few friendlies, .  .but i kept speed above 400mph, and never slowed down, . . ...

thanks to the CM's, . .the CO's, . and everyone who participated



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Daniko the madfish
3./JG2

[Rocket]

I was in the SEA for the 1st frame of the scenerio. Ghosth was the CM for the event.  The write up stated that all p51's had to stay within dot range of the bomber to provide escort and not sweep too far ahead.  A group of the p51's got ahead by quite a ways and engaged.  Ghosth thought instead of starting the frame over he would allow the few LW pilots that died to re-up at that time.  The fields were closed again right after this.  I think this was a good choice by ghosth at that point vs. restarting the frame.  Also note that with the cover gone for the most part from the buffs only 1 got thru in the first frame     Allied escorts take note  

S!
Rocket

EDIT: Cobra was reminded more than once to keep the escorts close.  I don't think he intentionally broke away from the buffs and sometimes s*$t happens.  Overall IMO thinks worked out ok  

[This message has been edited by Rocket (edited 03-24-2001).]

[Ghosth]

Daniko & Rocket are both correct.

I warned Cobra once on CM's squad channel before launch that P51's were to be within vis range of buffs (dot vis)at all times.

After seeing planes scattered over a very large area I again said that p51's needed to be in vis range of buffs, on new CM Arena channel this time.

Apparently Cobra missed both messages. It happens, especially in the fog of war. In order to compensate I decided as CM to allow
any LW pilots killed in that first sortie to reroll in D9. To my knowledge none did, however I am checking the logs now.

That decsion was mine to make as CM in order to keep things fair & equitable for both sides.

2nd frame I did allow 10 TA 152's to roll and also made the p51's free to hunt. Again, since it was a 2nd frame and just for fun I didn't see a problem with it.

[Ghosth]

Frodo,

"Icons were set way too far out.They were farther than the main arena icons. Reduced icons make for a much better immersion factor I think."

Icons should have been set to close. However I have noticed in the past that they don't always seem to set the first try. If someone had said something I'd of tried again to set them short.

"Some LW guys were whining for the d9 Dora instead of the a8 before launch. Not sure if they got them as I fought mostly 109's? If they did get doras this is wrong. Stick to the setup for the scenario or get it changed beforehand."

Couple of points here. First is that I started the talk of D9's & Ta 152's. As CM's we try to get new additions into events as quickly as possible. So I ASKED if this was something people were interested in & if they had a problem with it. Getting a mixed bag of responces I decided to table it for the time being. NO repeat NO 190D9's or TA 152's rolled the first frame. No one died & was allowed to reup. However as I stated above, to balance the P51's hunting free of the buffs if someone had died in that first melee I would have allowed them to reroll in a D9.

"Would like to know from the CM why things were changed so much in this one? No matter how much .... whines you should stick to the setup of the scenario!"

This is where we get into a grey area.
First off, this event was not effected at all by anyone whineing.

Second, as CM my primary responsibility is to see that both sides are balanced. To provide a level playing field so both sides can enjoy the event.

Within that framework I am allowed a lot of freedom to change things at my discretion.

Third, this particular event was designed by vadr some months ago. It was a success then, so Daddog as weekly event lead cycled it back through again. In his email to me reminding me that I was on duty fri night he said & I quote ".just a reminder that you are hosting "Real Trouble" Friday night.  Set it up as you please. :-)"  So I did exactly that, I set it up as it seemed best to me at the time.

While we do ordinarily try to keep events running pretty much as posted. We also work very hard to try to keep them fresh and interesting for all involved. This can be anything from juggleing the fields involved,
to includeing planes not in the game at the time of the writeup.

Frodo I'm sorry you were disapppointed on Fri night. Frankly this is the first time I've ever seen a real complaint to any event I've CM'ed.

Please accept my apoligies.

 

[Lephturn]

Just a note about event rules in general.

The key to these things is always simplicity!  Especially in small events like this, folks won't follow the rules very much.  I would wager there wasn't much Cobra could do about it... folks will fly where they will fly.

While some things like altitude restrictions for the buffs may be necessary, that sort of thing is relatively easy to enforce.  Trying to keep guys in visual range of the buffs is a tough one, and I wouldn't expect it to work to be honest.  Just make the point values of the buffs high enough, and that should do it by implication.  

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[Frodo]

Ghosth I missed the message to the 51's I guess also.As far as I know the group I was with had buffs in sight during the fight,not sure about the other group.Not sure allowing pilots to re-up was a good choice but can't think of another alternative.But why in the d9?
The second frame I also didn't see the p51's free to hunt message.But TA 152's?I thought 2nd frames were to be run just as the first?I did not know that they were just for fun?Did I miss something?The fog of war.  

What about the icons??????????????

Ghosth I think we all appreciate the work you guys do and thanks.These things are not easy to run.

Frodo

Ghosth just saw your last post.You don't owe me an apology.Just trying to understand and help if I can.Thanks for the response and I am looking forward to more of these.

[This message has been edited by Frodo (edited 03-24-2001).]

[Ghosth]

Frodo,just to clarify the point. Once the first frame is over and logs are closed my responsibility for the event is done.

If I have a lot of people left in the arena and some time left I will often run a second frame purely for fun.

It's not logged, it's not required, same basic rules will ussually apply. I often consider it a "what if" situation where I can often learn a lot about balance, effects diff planes have, etc.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear last night.
It allows those in the mood to fly one more chance to get it right. It allows me to "fudge" settings to see how they might change things. In many respects its the one chance we CM's have to "practise".

[Rocket]

Frodo,
  Re-read his above post about the icons.  Ghosth set the icons to short range but sometimes it doesn't set the first time.  We never saw anyone comment on this during the frame so we had no idea they were still on furthest range.  If it had come up then we could have changed it to shortest with no problem.  Sorry bout that.  If you see anything wrong with the setup once in the air hollar it out so the CM can fix it or let ya know the difference  

S!
Rocket

[Frodo]

Ghosth if this is the way the second frames are setup I was not aware of it,sorry.Thanks for the clarification.

Rocket as I was posting the second time I hadn't seen the explanation from Ghosth on the icon problems.

By the time I noticed the enemy icon setup it became very busy very fast,and didn't have time to think about it anymore.

Another thing...As the 1st frame launched I couldn't and none of the buttons worked(hangar,map,ect).I had to leave the game and come back in to launch.I launched with the fuel load I selected,but the others in our flight that launched normally, got only 25% fuel even though thay selected higher loads.I think they all joined in the mission planner and launched that way,but I am not positive.The CM's might want to look into this before the "Hostile Shores" scenario.

Again thanks for the response.

Frodo

[daddog]

Thanks for all the input fellows.  I do appreciate it and follow closely the comments made here by the players and by the CM's.

I do give the CM's creative freedom when it comes to the events.  Certainly I expect them to stick with what was written in the event, but if something needs to be changed I expect them to make the best choice for the players.  Of course not all the players will ever agree and we do make mistakes.  When we do, the mistakes are always made in the players best interests.  Our goal is for those participating in the Historical Events to have fun and want to come back. To do that you have to keep things balanced, (according to the event write up) and not be swayed by whining. No easy task at times and most of you realize our efforts.

Thanks again for all the constructive comments and thanks for participating in our weekly events!    

<S>

[Cobra]

I have to take responsibility for one group of the 51's scouting south.  I came in late to the event and missed that part of the write-up and I missed Ghosth's warnings  

It was my fault for letting an element of the 51's get out of dot range of the bombers.  

I did have fun though, but man it was hard to keep all those Waffles off the bombers, even though we had alot of 51's as close escort!

I wished I could have stayed for the second frame, but my cable was going in and out, and I don't want to warp in and out in these events.

<S> to the CM's and all who showed up, this are alot of fun.

As a side note, I joined last minute and got "volunteered" to be Allied CO.  I hope more folks want to try a hand at being a CO for these events.  They are a great learning experience for leadership roles in the larger scenarios!

Cobra