Re: German vs. American

[Angus]

It would never be 50% just on that.
Bear in mind though that the power extracted out of a modded RR Merlin running on "cocktails" in the production built "Speed Spitfire" as soon as 1939 was already 2000 hp+......
It didn't break the Me209's record, but it had the quickest London-Paris I belive.

[Krusty]

But the fact remains...the Western Allies took over the very high alt performance as soon as the Spit IX entered the game in 1942, and held it for the next couple of years, beyond the line when it was clear that the Axis would loose.

Angus:

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=spit9&p2=109g2&p3=109g6&p4=190a5

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=spit16&p2=p51d&p3=109g14&p4=190d9

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=spit16&p2=p51d&p3=109k4&p4=ta152h
(for comparison, spit16 speed curve is almost identical to p-51D up until about 26k, falls off a couple thousand higher than the pony does)

It's not as if they're behind the 8-ball, as your post implies. They were fairly competitive up until the end. Their major weakness being (just looking at charts) their power dropped off earlier than the allied planes, which usually dropped off around 25k or so. That was rectified in very-late-war models like the 152 and the K-4.

[Angus]

You are quoting AH based charts. Don't have much info on high alt or?
Remember, that in RL, over W-Europe, the fights were mostly very high up. Already in 1942, the Spit IX could cruise in formation well over the ceiling of a 109. And the turn and acceleration charts apply to 500 ft. The Spit IX and the rest with double-turbo would start kicking in at some 20K!
Give me a turn radius chart between 109G and Spit IX at 40K 

[Denniss]

You are quoting AH based charts. Don't have much info on high alt or?
Remember, that in RL, over W-Europe, the fights were mostly very high up. Already in 1942, the Spit IX could cruise in formation well over the ceiling of a 109. And the turn and acceleration charts apply to 500 ft. The Spit IX and the rest with double-turbo would start kicking in at some 20K!
Give me a turn radius chart between 109G and Spit IX at 40K 

To which Spit Ix are you referring to, the standard IX or the higher alt versions? Were they in service in 1942 ?

[Angus]

The "standard" was made for high altitude, they were later modded "down".
They were in the game in 1942 and could cruise in battle formation at 43K, the limit for alt being the Pilot's body not taking the "bends"
I have heard a claim of a flight at 49K, but would have to get into archives to be sure it's a IX, and that would have been in 1943 or 1944.
At 35K they were at large with lots of maneuvering possibility (which goes down to nothing at ceiling), at 20K they were basically beginning to shine, since at that alt the second turbine kicked in.
Funny to have a plane modded for better performance at lower alt.....

[Denniss]

The "standard" was made for high altitude, they were later modded "down".
They were in the game in 1942 and could cruise in battle formation at 43K, the limit for alt being the Pilot's body not taking the "bends"
I have heard a claim of a flight at 49K, but would have to get into archives to be sure it's a IX, and that would have been in 1943 or 1944.

Are you dreaming? They had to strip Mk. IX off armor, some armament and other stuff to be able to intercept high alt german Ju86 recons at about 45k alt in September 1942 and I really doubt the standard Mk.IX was capable of cruising at 43k alt.

[Krusty]

Agreed. The ceiling for most of these planes was aroudn 39,000 or so, some 40,000 tops.

Also, the supercharger peaked at 25k or so. I don't see how you can take that to mean it didn't drop off rapidly above this point, and that it was still producing gobs of power up almost 20k above its peak power alt.

[gripen]

Are you dreaming? They had to strip Mk. IX off armor, some armament and other stuff to be able to intercept high alt german Ju86 recons at about 45k alt in September 1942 and I really doubt the standard Mk.IX was capable of cruising at 43k alt.

Those stripped Spitfires used for intercepting the Ju 86Ps in mediterranean were mark Vs. These sripped planes had the single stage, single speed Merlin 46s while the early Spitfire IXs had the two stage, two speed Merlin 61s.

[Denniss]

Those stripped Spitfires used for intercepting the Ju 86Ps in mediterranean were mark Vs. These sripped planes had the single stage, single speed Merlin 46s while the early Spitfire IXs had the two stage, two speed Merlin 61s.

Still not enough for a standard Mk.IX to catch Ju 86R over England neither enough to "cruise" at 43k.

[mentalguy]

Still not enough for a standard Mk.IX to catch Ju 86R over England neither enough to "cruise" at 43k.

are you going to back yourself up or do we have to consider your post as more anti-spit BS?

[Krusty]

Well if I came out and said "P51s regularly cruised at 53k" you wouldn't need to prove it wrong, you'd put the impetus on ME to prove it RIGHT.

Rather than ask for proof it's wrong I think the focus is on the person that made the 43k cruising claim in the first place.

[MiloMorai]

Still not enough for a standard Mk.IX to catch Ju 86R over England neither enough to "cruise" at 43k.

But striped IXs did intercept 86s over GB.

[Krusty]

But striped IXs did intercept 86s over GB.

I think by "standard" he meant un-stripped, as in a rebuttle to the claim that spit9s were super high alt monsters (the original claim)

[Serenity]

Well if I came out and said "P51s regularly cruised at 53k" you wouldn't need to prove it wrong, you'd put the impetus on ME to prove it RIGHT.

Rather than ask for proof it's wrong I think the focus is on the person that made the 43k cruising claim in the first place.

I'm with Krusty on this one.

[Stoney]

Still not enough for a standard Mk.IX to catch Ju 86R over England neither enough to "cruise" at 43k.

Do you have a power curve for the Mk. IX to back this statement up?  Angus was mentioning things written and considered history.  While certainly examining sources is important to consider the history credible, perhaps there's a resource out there on the internet that could back up your statement?

Or perhaps he could present his as well.  I think Spitfire Performance may have what we're looking for here.