Author Topic: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices  (Read 1527 times)

Offline Shuckins

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 08:37:00 AM »
The hole we have fallen into is one we dug ourselves.  High gasoline and energy prices stem from, as has been said already:

1.  What amounts to almost a moratorium on drilling in the Gulf and along the continental shelf.

2.  A moratorium on drilling on the North Slope of Alaska.

3.  Opposition to the development of nuclear energy.

4.  Opposition to the building of new refineries.

5.  An increasing dependence on foreign suppliers of oil, due mainly to 1, 2, and 3.

6.  Urban families that feel a need to purchase massive SUVs to commute down interstates to work and various social functions.

7.  A tendency of U.S. automakers to design vehicles at least 25% heavier than they need to be.

8.  Homes (gaudy McMansions) that are at least 50% larger than they have to be and that are build with no thought toward utilizing modern energy-saving technologies.

9.  A refusal of many drivers to drive at more sedate speeds in order to conserve fuel.

And that's just to start.


Offline Hap

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 08:49:29 AM »
Ah yes, the liberal solution to EVERYTHING, tax the profits.

Such as the Voting Rights Act.

Offline lazs2

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2008, 08:57:02 AM »
shuckins.. the first five things you mention are all because of democrats and they are the important reasons we are in this mess.. not to mention an increase in worldwide demand.

The last items are self regulating and no ones business but the people involved.

If osamabama taxes the oil companies more then we will feel the price increase at the pumps and all we will have accomplished is to build a bigger government..   maybe a plan to give cell phones to needy negros in harlem...

lazs

Offline Shuckins

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2008, 09:01:13 AM »
Well Lasz, the last items are indeed related to self-regulation.  As a people, we can ignore the consequences of our decisions for only so long, and no more.  This proves my point, we are caught in a cleft stick of our own cutting.

Offline lazs2

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 09:12:39 AM »
no problem with that.. I am just pointing out that the things we as individuals can do..  we will do based on how important those things are to us..

the things the democrats are doing to us...  we can't seem to stop.  And they are the real reasons for our problems.   They are the things causing the needless pain and simply piling on.

lazs

Offline Donzo

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2008, 09:23:18 AM »
In what alternate dimension, john?

This time last year I was paying just under $3.00/gal, MAYBE just over. Now I'm paying nearly $4.00, in the Midwest where prices are generally lower.

He said gas sales, not the price of gas.

Offline Eagler

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2008, 10:16:44 AM »
they are trying to turn this into a class envy issue like they do everything else .. you know, the rich white guys are the root to all evil LOL
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Offline Charon

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2008, 10:20:13 AM »
Quote
There's nothing artificial about the oil price, although speculation will always produce narrow price swings around the true, consumption/production driven price. If speculation was causing an unnaturally high price then consumption would have reduced and oil stockpiles would be increasing. They aren't, so all the oil being produced is being consumed at $120 a barrel.

That's not entirely true. Not at all.

I pulled this from Der Speigel, but it was a common topic of conversation a the conference I attended earlier this month. It's also something I've discussed with guys like Tom Kloza at OPIS and analyst Peter Beutel:

Quote
The world consumes 86 million barrels of oil a day, but trading volume is 15 times as high. The difference represents bets on future price developments…

Within a year the price of a barrel of crude has doubled, from $50 to last week’s high of $100…Some analysts see prices rising to between $120 and $150, which would have dramatic consequences for the world economy. Similarly spectacular price developments have only occurred four times in the last few decades: in 1973, when the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) imposed an embargo for the first time; in 1979, as a consequence of the Iranian revolution; a year later, when Iraq invaded Iran; and in 1990, when Iraq invaded Kuwait…

speculators now hold up to 45 percent of all oil contracts — three times as many as at the turn of the millennium. “Prices are being distorted,” says Senator Carl Levin, the ranking Democrat on the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, which is investigating the speculative trading of oil futures. If supply and demand were the only factors, the price of oil would be at least $20 lower.

How could this have happened?…Daniel Jaeggi, a former futures trader for Goldman Sachs, knows exactly how the business changed in the late 1990s. “The big pension funds began to diversify their investments, increasingly putting their assets in oil,” he says. The pension funds, according to Jaeggi, became the “driving factor in the market.”…Goldman Sachs was at the head of the pack. “They invented a new commodities index that also included oil,” says Jaeggi. The new index was wildly successful, and the more major investors put money into it, the more oil contracts Goldman bought and the higher the prices went. An enormous market force had been created.

Everyone jumped into the game. Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank and many other financial giants dramatically expanded their trading volume in oil contracts. Investment banks like Goldman even established their own oil reserves, acting as if they were energy companies like BP. They hoped to gain better insight into market events.

As a result, the trading volume in crude oil has almost tripled in the last five years, while demand for the liquid itself grew by only 1.9 percent per year.

As noted, demand is readily dropping and the automakers are moving bleatedly into anti-SUV mode. And a lot of that increase in foreign demand, in China for example, is artifically suypported through subsidies. That has a shelf life. To some extent demand is inelastic, even at $120 bbl, but given the huge percent that hinges on US transportaion fuels and our inefficient choices in automobiles in the 1990s when prices were exceptionally low that is very elastic in coming months/years. These prices are also binging more and more production on line, both traditional and non-traditional. And oil still costs $10 or so to produce in most of the world -- the cost hasn't dramatically increased and peak oil is still, at best, a theory for now.

We also don't know exactly what's going on with production limitations (real or artificial) in the OPEC countries relative to meeting that demand. I knid of doubt that OPEC and others cannot physically meet international demand increased 7 years after the need was identified, given the relatively small percentage of increased demand. OPEC itself is starting to get freaked out and apparently will be working with other producers to do something about production. As Beutel told me, this is a potential disaster for them because the counter swing will likley not be all that pretty when the bottom falls out.

The jump from $60 to $120 or more is simply not related to a supply and demand equation. Those variables haven't really changed all that much during the same time. When oil gets down to $20 per bbl or less that won't be natural either :)

Charon

« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 10:33:30 AM by Charon »

Offline Charon

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2008, 10:40:58 AM »
And Obama's (See his mentor Dick Durbin as well) windfall profits scheme -- what a tool. I have no problem with "change" after Bush. Didn't even vote for Bush and think he was a disaster. But one thing all of you changers need to consider is that Bush was a knee jerk call for change after the Clinton years.

Anybody but Clinton...

Well, I don't want to replace Bush with some knee jerk, lightweight, progressive disaster that will screw us over in new ways. He'll just give us the other side of the big govt. big pork big special interests shaft to go with the big liberal Bush shaft of the last 8 years.

It's also "funny" that with all of the big financial institution money that has found it's way into the Obama campaign that he's not playing up the market angle, and instead is focused on the distributors.

Charon
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 11:19:28 AM by Charon »

Offline Toad

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2008, 10:45:17 AM »
So, Charon, in your professional opinion, how long before the oil bubble bursts?

Months? Years?

It's painful but to a certain extent I see this as necessary. We're not going to get serious about alternative energy, high mpg vehicles, etc., etc.,  until we're hurting.
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Offline Charon

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2008, 11:17:17 AM »
Quote
So, Charon, in your professional opinion, how long before the oil bubble bursts?

Months? Years?

It's painful but to a certain extent I see this as necessary. We're not going to get serious about alternative energy, high mpg vehicles, etc., etc.,  until we're hurting.

My opinion is not worth all that much on crude prices :) But, there are some smart people out there who have a pretty good track record at such things. Of course, a lot of them are shaking their heads now too. Tom Kloza basically made fun of himself for the first part of his session about how odd the market is and how off he was last year in predicting how high prices are today.

Beutel sees it within 4-8 years, but I did hear him on the radio the other day seemingly moving up that estimate. He predicts a fairly heavy pop and dramatic loss of price. Of course, unless we get the value up in the dollar we will have a 30 percent or so additional bump on whatever price we reach. The problem with the benefits from the prices is that as soon as oil gets cheap again, we forget about making the sensible choices. We are simply not a small car, small house, think green public transportation culture unless there is pain involved. If it happens too soon, we may not even see the SUVs moved into mothballs :)

Charon
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 11:20:26 AM by Charon »

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2008, 12:34:38 PM »
Thanks Charon. For all the good it'll do. There are those who are determined not to listen to or grasp the concept of the truth and reality.
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Offline Nashwan

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2008, 12:38:16 PM »
Quote
speculators now hold up to 45 percent of all oil contracts — three times as many as at the turn of the millennium.

But what do the speculators do with the oil? At the end of the day, they either have to take delivery of the oil and store it, or sell it.

Speculators could be really distorting the market if they were stockpiling oil, but they aren't. With oil selling for $120+ a barrel, consumption is roughly equal to production.

If prices were lower, consumption would be higher. Higher consumption isn't possible without higher production.

Quote
To some extent demand is inelastic, even at $120 bbl, but given the huge percent that hinges on US transportaion fuels and our inefficient choices in automobiles in the 1990s when prices were exceptionally low that is very elastic in coming months/years.

That's true, and I think oil demand will fall, and prices with it.

Quote
These prices are also binging more and more production on line, both traditional and non-traditional.

But will the new sources even offset the decline in existing fields, let alone lead to increased supply? The North Sea is down 2 million barrels a day from peak, and likely to decline another 10% this year. Russian oil production actually declined in the first quarter of this year, rather than increased as forecast. Mexican production is falling fast. Venezuela, which had been forecast to increase production for years to come, is experiencing major declines.

Granted politics and mismanagement plays a part in the declines in some countries, rather than a lack of reserves, but that doesn't make the declines any less real.

The world has to add a lot of production each year just to make up for the declines in existing sources. In the last couple of years the US has added new production, but that's only halted the long term decline in the US, it hasn't actually increased total production from the 2006 figure.

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I knid of doubt that OPEC and others cannot physically meet international demand increased 7 years after the need was identified, given the relatively small percentage of increased demand.

Opec did increase production quite dramatically several years ago, from 31.9 million barrels per day in 2003 to 36.1 million in 2005. Opec production actually fell slightly in 2006 and again in 2007 (according to the EIA). I doubt they lack the reserves to increase capacity, but I suspect they might lack the ability to exploit those reserves.

Quote
OPEC itself is starting to get freaked out and apparently will be working with other producers to do something about production. As Beutel told me, this is a potential disaster for them because the counter swing will likley not be all that pretty when the bottom falls out.

That's one of the worrying signs. The price of oil has increased far above the target OPEC set, to a point where it is leading to major demand destruction. OPEC still haven't acted to increase supply.

Quote
The jump from $60 to $120 or more is simply not related to a supply and demand equation. Those variables haven't really changed all that much during the same time.

If it's not related to supply and demand, where is the oil going? If consumption = production at $120 a barrel, how could consumption = production at, say, $80 a barrel, unless production increased?

I don't see a way for the price to be out of line with supply and demand in the long term unless stocks are increasing, or unless oil consumption does not decrease with price. Demand is certainly inelastic to some extent, but not totally. Stocks are not increasing, in fact they have declined slightly over the last year.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2008, 12:45:03 PM »
Penalizing a people or an industry with an unnecessary and subjectively based tax, such as a tax on "excessive profits (exactly who is qualified to judge what is or is not excessive?) is just about as smart and effective as the policy of "the beatings will continue until morale improves".
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Offline Waffle

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2008, 01:16:20 PM »
hmm......

Our own oil can't be drilled - why?: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/63068

Windfall profit taxes didn't work in the 80's, gas production actually slowed and imports of oil increased. But for some reason, maybe it'll work now. :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 01:20:02 PM by Waffle »