Author Topic: HO shot or Deflection?  (Read 3372 times)

Offline SlapShot

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2008, 02:23:24 PM »
Why do I get nervous when you agree with me?  :lol

You should be VERY nervous !!
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2008, 02:27:12 PM »
:rofl you a trainer right?  Maybe you should have known that at equal speeds, if you pull up early for an immel, the bad guy will end up right on your six? The only cheap thing about it is the act of committing suicide  :rofl  If the bad guy is faster all he has to do is chop throttle for a second and the result is the same.

But hey, you are right, teach people to go for the HO since the other guy pulled a cheap move by getting out of the way and trying to have a fight.  Don't learn how to take advantage of his mistake.  Just call him cheap and shoot him in the face  :rofl

Anyone else wondering why everyone opts for the HO first?  :rofl

Sorry ... but in the MA arenas, show me your belly early, like what was described ... and I will gut you like a fish ... and then look for the next guy. If I was in the DA ... then that's another story ... I would do as you suggest and chop throttle for a second and then power on to acquire your 6 position.

Oh ... and shooting a planes belly is not an HO ... :t
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Offline mtnman

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2008, 05:06:36 PM »
It's not actually a bait I'm throwing out Kermit, just another way of looking at what seems to a very common complaint.  Your quest for decent dogfights is great, and shared by many, including myself.  However, it's not shared by everyone, I doubt even shared by anywhere near the majority.  To a person not on such a quest, a kill by the HO-method is simply that- a kill.  If it's a kill on a known "ace", so much the better. 

Let's look at a common scenario, and what actully is learned-

#'s guy merges with "ace".  Ace is a bit too close, and allows #'s to think he has a shot, which he takes.  Three obvious possible outcomes here- one, #'s misses, in which case he doesn't get a positive reinforcement for hitting, but recieves a negative reinforcement for missing, due to his loss seconds later when the ace kills him.  Or, if #'s hits, he recieves a positive reinforcement for hitting (see's sprites) followed by a positive reinforcement when he recieves the kill.  Or, three, he hits, but only pizzes off the ace, in which case the ace kills him, and #'s gets a negative reinforcement for not landing enough hits.

In case 1- negative reinforcement for missing the HO, leads to future attempts to perfect his aim.

In case 2- positive reinforcement for hitting, both in visual appeal (sprites) and in kill message, leads to future attempts to duplicate.

In case 3- positive reinforcement for hitting, but negative for not hitting enough, or well enough, again leads to future attempts to perfect his aim.

In any case, if the "ace" then complains about being hit HO, that could be a reinforcement either way.  Negative only if the #'s guy cares about the aces feelings, or positive in any number of areas.  He may actually enjoy making the ace unhappy, or causing him to whine, or value his kill more because he beat an "ace", or whatever.  IMO, more positive reinforcement than negative, will lead to continued attempts to HO.

Posting on the BBS?  Maybe negative (embarassment). Or percieved fame (just seeing his name tied to shooting down the "ace"), which is a positive.  Or maybe nothing, if #'s has no knowledge of the boards, doesn't care to check, or doesn't see the post.

So, how do you stop the behavior?  Ignoring it MAY work, but unless everyone does it, it won't. Even then, it may not stop, or may take a long time to stop.  Negative reinforcement would be the quickest wa to stop it.  How do we do that, other than with hits in the MA?  If I shot every time you turned left, you'd stop turning left.  If I shot you every time you HO'd, would you continue HOing?

Complaints on channel 200 have not shown much promise of eliminating the HO.  Neither have repeated posts on the BBS.  1 on 1 training may work- one player at a time.  But are they trained as fast as new players join and try the HO?

Is there another, better way?  Or is it even necessary to eliminate the behavior?

Food for thought more than anything...

And here's the kicker- If the ace allows the HO to be successful, he's actually encouraging the behavior.  About the best he could do under that situation is minimize the damage by ignoring the death.  Any acknowledgement could turn into a positive reinforcement, and lead to the opposite behavior the ace wants to see.
MtnMan

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Offline Kermit de frog

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2008, 06:37:54 PM »
Mtnman, I like pictures.   :)

I'll walk away from this argument.  Your sir are the winner for this round.  I'll be back when I get more ammo for this discussion.

HO discussions seem to be never ending.
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Offline iaqmya

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2008, 07:21:30 PM »
IMO, the HO is a deflection shot.  Zero defelection.  I would rather hit from two to four degrees either left or right, up or down thoug :)  Try to avoid the collison :)

HO was a legitimate tactic during both first and second wars.

Very useful when you are alone against superior numbers :)


Offline redman555

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2008, 08:09:11 PM »
Not a HO, but it sounds like you were pointing at him and had every intent of HOing him if it would be safe for you.  Sounds like he gave you the courtesy of avoiding a HO or collision and went for the fight instead, but got bullets in return.  Its a nice post, but it sounds like you took the opportunity to avoid the fight.  If there were others in the area, then good job.  If just you and him though, yeah, not a HO by definition but . . .


agree, i nvr try and ho, i will pull away, or somthing, but normally 90% of the time the person trys to ho me anyways, even if i dont fire 1 shot


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Offline dedalos

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2008, 09:52:07 AM »
So, what you're saying here is "it's not ok to shoot the guy when he gives you the opportunity, unless you chop throttlle and pull first.  Then, it's ok to shoot him for making the same mistake that would have allowed him to be shot in the first place."

So, that begs the question- How much aerial "mastery" needs to be domonstrated before a shot is "legitimate"?  Is chopping throttle and pulling once the defining act?  Is getting behind him the requirement?  Winning his six?  How do you prove you "won" his six?  A certain ammount of time back there (enough for a roll, say?).  And if he makes a mistake, and "gives" you his six, have you really "won" it?  What if you accidently just find yourself behind him?  Does that count?

 :rofl

You know, it is really simple.  You called pulling up early cheaper than a HO because it gives you an advantage.  In reality, it kills you.  That is what I was addressing.  No need to back pedal now by typing pages and pages.  So, one more time, I was only addressing your calling the pull up cheap.

As far as the HO or the belly shot, go ahead and take it. They are valid shots.  However, in a 1 vs 1, go for the fight (just my opinion).  See what you can do, you know?  It is a little annoying when the training stuff argues in favor of not fighting.  Thats all.  Other than that, the shots are valid.  Keep up the good work and soon we will have DoomHigh
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline mtnman

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2008, 03:06:46 PM »
Lol, I'm not the slightest bit interested in back-pedaling Dedalos.  And I'm not interested in arguing in favor of "not fighting" either. 

I think you're just trying to skew my words to avoid what I was really discussing.  That's OK, do what you want.  I'm breaking with "tradition" and not just ranting on the BBS or 200 about the "lame HO'ers!", but rather looking at it from a different perspective.  I know that will be too open-minded for some, and I'm OK with it.  Feel free to attack if you feel threatened by it.  I don't feel threatened by your argument.

I'm not advocating HO's.  On the contrary, I'm discussing "punishment" or "deterent" to HO's.  Take your blinders off.  The current methods for solving something about what many see as a problem are laughable in their lack of effectiveness.  And yes, I laugh at those who continue with those methods, as you laugh at me, hehe!  Would my methods (if put into play) be better/more effective?  I doubt it.  But certainly not less effective.

As I mentioned in a different thread, I don't see HO's as a real problem anyway, at least in my experience.  At least, not any bigger of a problem/threat to decent gameplay than the constant stream of whines.  Those whines are an embarrassment, IMO.  Makes us look like a bunch of grade-school kids crying about scuffed knees.  "Mommy! He pushed me!"

While the HO isn't a tactic I use, it's a tactic I welcome to be used ON me.  If I get hit by it, oh well, I screwed up.

In the example given, I agree, the guy pulling early is presenting a legitimate shot to his belly, has screwed up, and deserves to get hit.  In reality, I would seldom if ever take that shot- even though I feel it should be taken (and in reality, if I took it he'd be screaming "HO!!" on 200...).  Personally, I'd rather let the fight play out a bit longer, and since I see his mistake I can easily capitolize on it.  But, if you think about it, that just makes me feel better, doesn't it?  Lets me show off my aerial "mastery" a bit, right?  He sealed his fate by pulling early, in essence giving me his six, but by delaying my shot and doing a simple turn onto his six I can act/look like I earned the shot.  False bravado/skill IMO.  But it sure looks like that's what some people want to see.  He killed himself, but by waiting a few seconds I can shift the credit onto myself, right?  And be the better pilot for it, right?  LOL

MtnMan
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 03:27:33 PM by mtnman »
MtnMan

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Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2008, 04:06:04 PM »
I know I spelled it wrong but it is almost 3:30AM so I don't care lol. Anyway, just had rather interesting incident but just makes me wonder what would most consider this shot as:

I see the 109 diving in on me from little bit higher then I was. I was about 1.5 and was going to fly under him and do barrel roll so I was expecting him to ho me. He decided he wanted to pull up about 1000, exposing his underbelly long enough for me to score some hits, including rad. hit. He was climbing and as he was doing so, he was accusing me of ho'ing him.   But anyway, he saw this as me ho'ing him even though I didn't consider it as one since he exposed his belly to my guns.

So my question, would this be considered as HO shot or deflection shot?

Nope.  Happens to me all the time.

I usually merge off-cantor to avoid the HO.  Occasionally, however, if I judge a enemy A/C's E to be much lower than mine, Ill pull up for the rope.  In the above situation, it just sounds like he went for that a little bit too soon is all and instead of having to go over the top to bring your guns around, you just had to pull up a bit further.

Offline BillyD

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2008, 04:24:28 PM »
Beer. Never mind i rethought it lol :)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 06:24:39 PM by BillyD »
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2008, 04:25:28 PM »

Offline Yknurd

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2008, 04:39:18 PM »
mmmm...wings.  i like wings.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2008, 05:51:10 PM »
i like wings.

I like turtles.


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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2008, 05:58:42 PM »
soup or steaks?

Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2008, 06:58:36 PM »
???

Gimme a break.  First day back at work in a week.  :D