Icons AGAIN

[Robert]

how about something like this :
all friendly planes have a icon like these in the pic.
All enemy planes have a color for each type plane.
All FRIENDLY = GREEN
All 109's any type = yellow
All Spit types = Blue
All 51 types = Red
and so on and so forth.
that way you wouldn't know what type of 109 (or any other type) plane til you got close enuff to see the paint scheme. but you would know it was some sort of 109 due to the icon color. Also you would know it was enemy because it wasn't green. Another thing the color icon could be smaller at range and get bigger as you got closer. If nothing else this should be easy to change because we already have icons with color and if it didn't work we could always go back to the old way!!!!  

 

[Robert]

HUMM i wonder what happened to the picture !!  

[Robert]

 

[funked]

You get what you pay for with xoom...

[Robert]

cc that funk ! but looks like there working now !

[Jinx]

Mx22 asked how IFF works with no icons..
Just to give the other side of the issue a push, no icons can be a blast! But its much more demanding. A few cool things happen, people start flying in groups and use more real world tactics. Altitude isn’t that important any more, at least not a huge altitude advantage, because the planes are usually much harder to see against the ground then against the sky, it can be easier to stalk someone undetected if you close from below. And closure speeds has to be much lower or you will ram your target. ACM and E-fighting gets much harder and less precise, you often think you are on someone tail and find yourself in a head on.

Some of my most memorable fights have been in the WB HA. Like the one where I bounced two 262s at 17k by lead turning and diving in from 28k, close from low 6 in a P47D and then in turn got jumped by a 190D.. A very long and very tense fight. SA is much harder, and so is judging relative E and speed.

It works best with a plane set with different color planes, like silver P51, P47 and P38s against dark 190 and 109s. The light colored planes have a disadvantage, but it is easy to identify friend or foe. With Hurricanes against 109s for example, it is much harder, but the WB 109E had a yellow nose, and when you saw that yellow pixel you had your id. It takes time to learn, but it can work fairly well, if everyone cooperates. It of course has to be in a two-sided arena with different planes on different sides though.

  -Jinx

[Westy]

 And a smaller arena. No icons (and no radar I assume) would give you no indication of where the enemy is.
 Even during the real war the ground observer networks would relay sighting and interceptors had at least of where the enem was with a general indication of alt, heading not to mention strength and possible destination.
 If there were no icons or radar in the arena as we have today I'd be one bored mutha trying to find the enemy to dogfight.
 I've played with no icons by shutting them off over a dogfight. I still would liek to try it out for real. Two sides, aircraft only available for one country at a time.
 And unless you have a decent size monitor (17" plus) with a fine dot pitch (.25 or better)....heee he he, good luck  

  -Westy
 

[snag]

what jinx said. an analogical feedback would be ten times better than those numerical distance indicators.

[popeye]

Well, the icons could be smaller.  But...

I think the icons that we have now are pretty good.  I would hate to get rid of them entirely.  I would hate the brand W HA icons.  I play this game to try to outfly and outshoot the other guy, not to see who has the best monitor and best vision.

One thing I really like about the current system is the fact that everyone plays with the same icon color (dis)advantage.  I would like it even more, if players could adjust the brightness and hue of both friendly and enemy icons to accomodate differences in color vision and monitor characteristics.  SA is too important in this game for anyone to have a built-in (dis)advantage due to icons colors.  Been there.  

So whatever changes happen to icons, I think it is very important to give players the ability to adjust colors.

popeye

[Ghosth]

Right now the 332nd Flying Mongrels is looking at a move to Aces High. (30 + strong, CO is Daddog, XO, Ghosth)

We are talking to Pyro about a few issues that we have, and some things we'd like to see. One of those issues is icons.

We have been flying 98% the last 2 years in Brand W's HA. Personally I've flown everything from free weekends d100 icons, main arena's d60, Scen Lites d30, HA (which has tried many setups before seeming to settle on their current setup) to a special event with NO icons.

Less is better! Range alone forces you to manually id your opponant. (This is a good thing in my book) Range only gives you a better shot at a sneak, while still telling you freind from foe by the color.

Jinx, I can remember when you first posted your idea, I was for it then & I'd still love to give it a try!

I'd suggest all testing of icons be done in the special events arena (to disrupt main as little as possible until)

Friendly ID should preferably be possible out to 30k or longer. This eleminates the stalk & blowing all your E on a friend. Enemy id should either be jinx's method or a simple range counter that starts
at 5k.

Why 5k you ask?

5k = a bit under 3 miles. Given sunshine & resonable visiblity you can tell a lot about a plane at 3 miles. It's out of gun range but definatly a threat. At about 3 miles planes start turning from specks in the sky to planes with wings, color, shape.

By all means put the icons underneath if you like.

------------------
Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels

[funked]

Sounds good Ghosth!

[Toad]

If we're going to actually try a few different means of IFF instead of this 10 year old system, I'd be really happy.

Here's a few points to ponder. These thoughts are based on a non-historical arena, where all sides fly all planes. Strict Historical could/should be different.

Ranges would have to be hashed out but that's an area that affords easy experimentaion once the overall system is set.

1. At long range, a plane <whether friend or foe, fighter or bomber> should just be an unknown dot.

2. As range closes, one would be able to distinguish a dot as a bomber earlier than a fighter. Therefore, some sort of "buff" ID should show at a range that would still be a dot for a fighter. At this range you couldn't tell friend from foe.

This means a dot could be either a long range plane of either type or a closer fighter that is not yet distinguishable. You just couldn't tell.

3. As range further decreased, a fighter ID should show. You should also now be able to tell, in some way, friend from foe, perhaps just a red dot at nose, tail and wingtips. This assumes that we would <in Real Life> be distinguishing plane type. Again, this would be a different range for a bomber than a fighter.

4. Now, after IFF range, add distance information. Range info should perhaps only be shown in 1k or .5k increments to avoid the rapidly running counters. I would not show range beyond a certain distance <a yet to be determined "threat" range> and I would remove it as the aircraft comes to "guns range." Perhaps cut out range info inside of 1k or .5k at minimum. You need IFF here, but you don't need range when you're ready to shoot. That should be part of pilot skills and judgement.

5. I would have no aircraft type ID available at ranges that allow you to distinugish that info from the graphics. (determined for the lowest resolution avail). I would allow some simple "type" info at ranges where you could see it in real life.

Different colored dots, arrows, numbers...any of these could be used to provide this type of information while minimizing and shrinking the huge icons we now have.

Just some thoughts. I'm sure everyone has some ideas and I'd love to read them. I hope we can get a meaningful discussion going and I also hope we can talk HTC into experimenting in the SEA with "alternative Icon lifestyles".

 

[Citabria]

dont show range past 500 yards.

gameplay will be much better  

[chisel]

Many many years of players banging their heads against this wall, They makem even BIGGER and you think they'll change their minds?


prove me wrong Pyro

----------------

Chisel,
Stumbles back to WB HA, shaking head

[ezrust]

Hopefully, chisel, they will.  The thing that makes AH so cool is that HiTech, Pyro, et al, actually read these boards, play the game, and care what we think.  Experimenting with a new IFF system doesn't seem out of the question.
There are certainly enough hard core simmers out there to make a market.  I think if you take all the Air Warriors and Warbirds pilots who are frustrated with the arcade quality of the experience and give them a VERY unforgiving and realistic WWII air combat game they will pay for it and stop playing the other games.  There is definitely a market for the arcade stuff too- a much bigger market.  But, hopefully, rather than try to compete against the others with a carbon copy product, Aces High will be the hard core simmer's game of choice.  
P.S. I really like Jinx' idea.  I don't care how you do it... I just want STEALTH implimented.

------------------
RUST
 
JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by ezrust (edited 03-07-2000).]