B-17 "Super"forts

[MiG Eater]

This is a gameplay/playability issue that doesn't fall under the realm of one particular bug.  The overall performance of the B-17 is far outside a realistic representation a real Flying Fortress with regards to maximum speed, structural integrity at high G's and flight attitude capabilities.  

On a flight with Pang33, we climbed to and intercepted a B17 passing through 26k with a full bomb load (it was climbing in its own territory).  As we reached its altitude, it went into a powerdive, exceeding 500 knots indicated.  The pilot hit his autopilot at around 10k, instantly leveling out to hop in a gun turret.  The Mustangs we flew had an initial speed advantage, but could not close the distance and the B-17 pulled away in the dive.   I black out following its pullup and the -17 dove once more down to around 200 feet, pulling up using autopilot again from around 400 knots (indicated, with no closure on the bomber).  

Later in the same mission, while engaging two B-17's flying in close formation, each performed split-S's and Immelman's after dropping bombs in an effort to evade.  Again, 400 knot dives to the ground were performed.  This occurance was filmed.  

Here are the issues.

400 knot + dives and 6G+ pullouts.  Assuming that a B-17 could actually get to that speed under control, the fabric on the control surfaces would almost certainly shred if the pilots had enough strength deflect the elevator into the slipstream.  Things bend and break in a bomber not designed for this stress; wing structure, engine mounts, rivets, people standing up, etc.

Immelmans and Split-S's:  Both involve inverted attitudes and a 180 degree roll.  If all of the loose items (ammo boxes/belts, people, shackled bombs) didn't collide into each other or fall out (in the case of the waist guns) the engines would have faltered with their float type carburators and lack of an inverted oil system.  The prop pitch flattens out to the high rpm setting as oil pressure is lost which at high power could cause a runaway prop or four.  Engine shutdown is the remedy.  That may be too much reality to model but the net result is that a B-17 and its crew would likely not have survived such radical maneuvers in a combat environment.  They may have survived in the Brand A flight sim environment but many paying subscribers have left because it is so unrealistic.

B-17's rely on their high altitude cruise flight to provide a large measure of safety from intercepting aircraft.  They have the ability to climb above and outmaneuver any fighter in this sim above 35k (approx) but having the ability to outdive a fighter and survive is beyond any realistic capabilities the airplane or its crew may have had.  

MiG

[Fishu]

B-17s didnt either fly above 30k like just a routine..
1) Cold temperature
2) Can't get that high with bombs loaded
(read; only by overheating engine you can climb that high with payload, that causes loss or flame out of engines)

[juzz]

Fishu - you've just explained how they can go so high: the burning engines supply heat for the crew, so they don't get frostbitten  

[MiG Eater]

Are there any B-17 systems experts or ex-crew out there that could relate if the Flying Fort had pressurized ignition system?  These are absolutely essential for reciprocating engine operation above 32,400 feet (approx.).  There is not enough air density to insulate the gaps between conductors to prevent arcing.  Recip engines with unpressurized harnesses simply quit working above that altitude necessitating a descent to much lower altitudes to attempt a restart.  

Anyone,  Bueler?

MiG

[Werewolf]

As said before the normal attack altitude of the Forts was between 15 and 20k. If you look at the temp gauges in the current version you will see that you should not be able to climb from a way back field to a front field more than 15k. Hopefully engine temperature effects will be in action soon for the B17. Then the LW iron will easily fulfill the tasks the planes have been designed for (at least the FW 190 A8).

Werewo

[Westy]

 What was the guys name who owned that B17 the "Lazy Susan" ????

 <g,d,rlh>

Sorry MIG. WIsh I knew. Perhaps when the  www.historic.wings  B17 forumn reopens a repost of this there could bring an answer.

--Westy

[lemur]

Here's another playability issue with the 17.

Right now it's far too easy to take off in a 17, put it on autopilot jump to a gun posisition and use it as an uber gun platform.

Suggestion: Only active gunners (people using the .join command) have access to 'fire all guns', pilots can still gun but they can only fire one gun at a time.

Hopefully this keeps everyone happy since you still have the ability to defend the plane but not as easily as before. And you can always scream for someone to join you in flight  

[214CaveJ]

bad idea lemur
my preferred rides are the 17G and the Hawg
In the 17G I prefer to man my own guns.  Nothing personal against all the guys who are willing to man the guns, but if I miss and get shot down I can only blame myself.  There are only 3 very noted exceptions that I'll let man me guns any time they want to.

As for stripping down to just the manned position firing I'll argue with ya til we're both blue in the face.  I can't count the times I've approached a target with several bandits closing on me when I need to be heads down.  I'll be flipping between the norden and the external view to track how close they are and guage whether or not I can make my drop before I have to man the guns.  Several times I've dispatched one bandit, jumped to the norden and dropped a quick egg or two, then back to my guns and dispatch bandit #2, being successful in accomplishing this feat about 60% of the time (unless me guns are running out of ammo =).  I want MAX firepower on target every time I pull that trigger so I can dispatch the bandit as quickly as possible/


------------------
Air power is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base.         -  Hoffman Nickerson

[bloom25]

I agree with you Cave.  I too like to use my own guns, that way I get kills if I shoot down a plane, rather than only getting killed.  The only real advantage to having a gunner is that the guns can be used while you are bombing.  It is also quite possible to take down a b17 very easily, given the proper tactics.  (Straight on from 6 is not it.   )  Most of the time when I am killed in a b17 is when a con dives at my 2 or 11 from above, or comes up directly from below.
This makes the gunner lead the target and forces a change in position.  (Top to Ball turret, etc. )

I also like to have all guns that are available fire at a target, mostly because you only have at max 2 50's at any one position, giving any other plane a great advantage.  (Not counting the chin guns, as they can't be used manually.)

It was a good suggestion, but I don't think it is the right one.

I do agree with you on max altitude, though.  Since the b17 is not pressurized, there is no way any "real" b17 would, or for that matter could, fly at 40,000 ft+.  It would be amazingly cold, not to mention the lack of pressure could quite literally cause your blood to boil and would make breathing VERY difficult.  I did find evidence that b17's were often used at altitudes of 32,000 ft on actual bombing missions.  (Ex. July 8, 1941 attack on Wilhelmshaven was flown at 30,000 ft by b-17c's. )  We should be limited to the service ceiling of 35,800ft, or lower to account for bombload.

I believe that the main problems are the result of the game still being in early beta, so IMO we cannot expect it to be perfect yet.  I'm sure HTC will fix it eventually.  

Great game so far HTC!    

[bloom25]

(Geez, how could I forget something with that wall of text.)

I agree that the b17 would not be able to sustain a 6g turn, or fly inverted.  (They were tough, but not that tough.   )  IMO if you go inverted, engines should quit, and shouldn't restart until the plane is righted.  (Maybe we need an arrow on the rudder like the F4U to remind us which way is up.   )  Also, pulling high g's after a dive should be imposible.  I did notice that overspeeds have not yet been fully modeled, so this is probably part of the problem too.

Whew!!!  There I've posted everything I wanted too.

[Tibbets]

Beta beta bo beta bonana fana mo meta fee fi fo feta, beta.   heheh sorry  J/K

[lemur]

Hmmm. I Guess it just doesn't seem right that you can hop in a buff and get 2-4 kills at low alt.

Then again, if the point is to hit ground targets, then yeah, the guns aren't overmodeled. If the point is (like so many) as a cheap way for some bozo to see his name in lights "nuedweeb#23 shot down someguy" the guns ARE overmodeled.

Difficult issue to contend with.

I'd settle for gunner kill messages to be displayed in one color and fighter to fighter kills in be displayed in another.

That way we can separate the boys from the men  

Then again, it may be that we all learn to  attack bombers better as the game progresses.
I dunno, but I am willing to see how the game progresses.

And certainly when altitudes are reported on radar, that'll help (Scramble a few 190s! High bogeys inbound!)

~'Hairy chested he-man fighter to fighter killer' Lemur


[This message has been edited by lemur (edited 12-18-1999).]

[Toad]

Obviously there's some "playability" built into the buffs.

I can see why they need it, too. Buffing is a pretty low-reward occupation for most of us, yet if you're going to have a decent "strat" set-up you need some guys willing to buff.

They're not going to be too eager to buff if that's just an easy way to die.

Buffers have to be patient players; they need to climb a long time, drive a long way, successfully hit the target and then try to get home to land.

So, maybe the buffs perform amazingly well, the guns are stout and the bombsite is incredible. If this all wasn't true, who would buff? How would we have much "strategy"?

Buffs are NOT that hard to kill if you have the alt and you attack correctly, as previously described. Do a stern attack and you get your rear end handed to you, of course.

I'm sure things will be tweaked...this is the beta.

[Fishu]

Gunners kills per sortie doesn't reset until gunner logs out or flies own plane, so he might have flown already 10 times as a gunner in B-17 and has +20 kills from "sortie" (average of 2 kills per sortie...)

Try have your altitude on buffs what flies +30k and while having fuel multiplier (2.5*)
You'll get 109 to somewhere bit above and then you have to do one quick strike, out of fuel. Fw190 doesn't even get those altitudes in time, not to talk about outrunning buffs..
Once again time to turn on dweebstangs and spits? (which didn't hunt b17s in real life)