Author Topic: Questions with death  (Read 7253 times)

Offline Simaril

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Re: Right and Wrong as Clue to the Meaning of the Universe
« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2008, 08:45:27 AM »
I'll have to disagree with you on that, I don't believe that my suggestion is at all like quoting the bible. I believe it provides a more likely explanation for the existence of faith.

 :salute

I understand what you're saying, but I guess I didn't do a good enough job with what I was trying to get across. Here's what I meant:

When you say, for example, "I believe it provides an explanation for the existence of faith" you're using personal opinion as evidence. Even if you left out the words, "I believe...." your position STARTS with the assumption that there is no god. In that sense, you're relying on an unproven assumption as the foundation for  your explanation -- which in that sense is similar to what happens when a christian tries to prove his point by going to the bible.

And no offense intended.



This is actually pretty interesting stuff to think about, and I appreciate the way that things have been civil so far. Realistically, guys like us have thought things through to our satisfaction long ago...so odds are that nobody's going to change their minds after the discussion.

So why bother? Simply this: I'd hope that through discussions like this, people with can at least respect the intellectual foundations of each others' beliefs. Speaking as a member of a minority (theists in modern Western Civilization!), it'd be nice to not always hear that "ignorant Bible thumping dupes in polyester suits" undertone when people talk about faith.... :D :D
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Offline angelsandair

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2008, 08:48:15 AM »
1Corinthians2:11..For what man knoweth the things of a man,except by the spirit of man which is in him?Even so,the things of God knoweth no man,but the spirit of God.

12.Now WE have recieved NOT the spirit of the world,but the spirit which is of God;that WE might know the things that are freely given to us of God..

13.Which things also we speak,not in the words which mans wisdom teaches,but which the Holy Ghost teaches;comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14.But the NATURAL man recieveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God:for they are FOOLISHNESS to him:NEITHER can he KNOW THEM,because they are spiritually discerned.

The best reply you or I can give anyone who does not believe,is the word of God.The word makes an impact.

I like to say God does not call the equipped,he equips the called. :)

 God does not send anyone to hell,they make the choice to not trust and have faith on Jesus as Lord and saviour..Saved from what??? The wrath of God is what..

Hell was not originally made for humans,it was only made for lucifer and the angels that rebelled with him..

 And again,I see it coming up that satan had sex with eve,and this is just not true..As chickenhawk has posted..

 As far as the catholics moving the sabbath from saturday to sunday ink, is really a moot point..In the NT Paul spoke to this...Does not matter if one "worships" on saturday or sunday,or any other day of the week for that matter,God accepts it the same.

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Offline lazs2

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2008, 09:13:25 AM »
sorry.. the right and wrong without a religion thing doesn't fly on the happy/unhappy scale.

There are plenty that would not be missed.. a bum causes you to have to see and smell him.. no one likes him but he is doing no real harm.  you kill him.. you are happy..the people who had to smell and see him SHOULD be happy... no one knew or liked him so no one SHOULD suffer.. is the killing moral?

Of course not but.. why not?   the people who SHOULD be unaffected or happier are not.. why is that?  they sense an injustice..  they know it is immoral to kill without reason...  their god tells them so.

lazs

Offline Xasthur

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2008, 09:20:25 AM »
Not necessarily. Another common human moral value is that of equality. Given that is considered wrong to kill those who have families (according to the 'happy scale') that same consideration should be extended to other humans regardless of their circumstances.

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Offline Simaril

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #109 on: July 04, 2008, 09:31:17 AM »
Not necessarily. Another common human moral value is that of equality. Given that is considered wrong to kill those who have families (according to the 'happy scale') that same consideration should be extended to other humans regardless of their circumstances.



Nope, that one doesn't fly at all.

"Equality" has only been a common (non-religious) standard since the enlightenment. In medieval, ancient, and prior cultures hierarchy was the norm -- and the powerful didn't have any compunction about taking advantage of the weak. Even (AFAIK) ancient religions have little to say about equality.
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Offline lazs2

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #110 on: July 04, 2008, 09:37:28 AM »
how did we get equality to be a moral value based on the liberal professors "happy/unhappy" simplistic and bogus view of things?

You could say we "empathize" but how do you measure that?  it is what all undamaged humans have tho but where did it come from?   maybe a "big bang" of morality?   Perhaps evolution? 

If you steal a dime from someone who didn't even know they had it.. why should you feel bad?

lazs

Offline Xasthur

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Re: Right and Wrong as Clue to the Meaning of the Universe
« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2008, 09:39:48 AM »
I understand what you're saying, but I guess I didn't do a good enough job with what I was trying to get across. Here's what I meant:

When you say, for example, "I believe it provides an explanation for the existence of faith" you're using personal opinion as evidence. Even if you left out the words, "I believe...." your position STARTS with the assumption that there is no god. In that sense, you're relying on an unproven assumption as the foundation for  your explanation -- which in that sense is similar to what happens when a christian tries to prove his point by going to the bible.

Clearly I have been too blunt with my position on the non-existence of 'God'. When I say that I believe there is no 'God' I mean that I believe there is no god in the sense that the deity found in any 'sacred' text. My position is one that considers any accurate representation supernatural events from biblical times is impossible or at least highly unlikely. Thus, when I say that god is but a creation of man I am saying that the God that sent Jesus to us and resides in heaven is nothing but a creation of man.

I go on from there to suggest that these soothing notions of heaven, reward for just actions and eternal afterlife in paradise is all just 'spiritual heroin' cooked by humanity's inability to cope with reality.

I am not so arrogant as to rule out the possibility of a omnipresent being, I just find the Judeo-Christian version of this possible deity to be impossibly unlikely.  

This is actually pretty interesting stuff to think about, and I appreciate the way that things have been civil so far. Realistically, guys like us have thought things through to our satisfaction long ago...so odds are that nobody's going to change their minds after the discussion.

So why bother? Simply this: I'd hope that through discussions like this, people with can at least respect the intellectual foundations of each others' beliefs. Speaking as a member of a minority (theists in modern Western Civilization!), it'd be nice to not always hear that "ignorant Bible thumping dupes in polyester suits" undertone when people talk about faith.... :D :D

At least we can agree on this part, I am not here to offend anyone and I'm not here to 'convert' anyone. I find the way people view the world and the nature of existence fascinating and an entertaining way to best understand the foundation of other's beliefs is to 'argue' it out.

I don't care who believes what, I'm just putting my own views out there for critique and comparison.

 :salute

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Offline lazs2

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2008, 09:49:50 AM »
xasthur.. by your definition..  I don't believe in god either as I do not believe in the writings of any religion I know of.

I do believe that every one of em is divinely inspired but have been distorted or heaped meaning on.

I do believe that we go on after this.  I do not know in what form or for what reason and can wait to find out but do not fear it.   I will find out soon enough.

lazs

Offline Xasthur

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2008, 09:55:41 AM »
Nope, that one doesn't fly at all.

"Equality" has only been a common (non-religious) standard since the enlightenment. In medieval, ancient, and prior cultures hierarchy was the norm -- and the powerful didn't have any compunction about taking advantage of the weak. Even (AFAIK) ancient religions have little to say about equality.

Morality is socially defined concept. Different societies will have different understandings of morality.

In fact, saying that people once did not embrace the 'Love thy neighbour' commandment only further undermines the view that morality is an 'external force' and a product of god as equality as we understand it now is a product of this age of humanity.

Were 'right and wrong' eternal truths held and made by God they would consistant and unchanging owing to the infallible nature of the Christian deity.

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Offline lazs2

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2008, 09:58:46 AM »
why would anyone embrace a morality that didn't directly benifiet them?

lazs

Offline Xasthur

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2008, 10:06:32 AM »
Simple. If humans were indiviualistic hunters it would not benefit us at all. Humans are not, however, and as we all operate within a community group fostering the morality of equality, the right to life and respect of property etc benefits everyone. If we are all taught to respect these beliefs then these things that we do not want to happen to us are less likely to happen to us.

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Offline myelo

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Re: Right and Wrong as Clue to the Meaning of the Universe
« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2008, 10:59:35 AM »
One of the oldest evidences for the existence of a god notes that humans have a distinct MORAL sense, which assumes the existance of an overarching framework of right and wrong.

And what specific MORAL sense would that be? Don't kill? Don't steal? Don't deprive others of freedom, such as slavery?

Different religions, including christianity, have remained ambivalent or even encouraged these behaviors under certain situations over time. You're going to have a hard time arguing there is an immutable specific set of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors.

On the other hand, there is a growing literature of the adaptive value of certain altruistic behavior in animals. In order for species to survive long term, many individuals must serve the interests of others, even when there's no direct, immediate benefit to themselves. If this were not the case then many species would have died out long ago from eating their own offspring. Dig deeply enough into altruistic behaviour and you're likely to find a a selfish motive, but there are altruistic behaviors that seem to have no selfish motive. Bees for example are altruistic, the workers "sacrificing" fertility for the sake of the entire hive. A recent study showed rats were willing to go without food in order to relieve a fellow rat of pain, but only if they like each other.



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Offline Simaril

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Re: Right and Wrong as Clue to the Meaning of the Universe
« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2008, 04:23:20 PM »
And what specific MORAL sense would that be? Don't kill? Don't steal? Don't deprive others of freedom, such as slavery?

Different religions, including christianity, have remained ambivalent or even encouraged these behaviors under certain situations over time. You're going to have a hard time arguing there is an immutable specific set of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors

First, don't mistake my point and leap to the next one. What I've looked at so far is just the EXISTANCE of a moral imperative, as distinct from a "this is better than that" instinct. Again, the difference between a "mistake" or a "bad idea" as opposed to a "morally wrong decision." So what I'm talking about is NOT whose moral code is right, but rather that the essentially universal existence of the moral impulse has implications all its own.

And here's where I'm going with that line of reasoning: While it's one thing to see people agree on social contracts, it's an entirely different thing when disagreements occur. And in our reaction to those disagreements we get a clue about the difference between "normative" and "moral" behavior. Consider the difference between the way we'd react in these situations: Someone comes to an important formal event having dyed their hair purple and wearing a Tux and tennis shoes(a violation of cultural norms); versus someone in the right clothing who then robs the host. In one case we feel variations on "that's inappropriate", but in the other we say "that's immoral." Or even more directly, think about civil disobedience of some law because it's immoral -- obviously, the protester is rejecting something his society has agreed on, so there's something BEYOND the society's standards that he's relying on.

Which leads to the more important point. Whenever people appeal to a set of standards almost by definition the standards are arising from a plane higher than the one they're operating on. Take a contract between two people. If someone violates the contract and refuses to return the other person's money, the contract doesn't enforce itself. Instead, the enforcement comes from a higher authority, the country's legal code. When a gang member's societal norms allow him to steal, the victim isn't going to think "Oh, what do you expect when cultural norms collide" -- He's going to feel WRONGED as well as angry. And in so doing, he's unconsciously calling on an assumed code of what's moral, independent of your culture and mine. That's the moral sense operating.

So to sum up for those who skip the text wall -- I'm not at all talking about whose morality is "right." I'm just trying to point out the presence of a moral imperative whose very existence suggests something about the nature of reality.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 04:32:05 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Oogly50

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2008, 04:59:30 PM »
Thanks guys, for all your meaningful AND meaningless words. 

However, I myself am not afraid of death... I die when I die, and either way, I can't decide if heaven exists or not...
It's more of how I'll cope with it when my parents/dog/friends... boat... when THEY all die. 
There was once a saying that goes "If you put an infinite amount of monkeys in a room with an infinite amount of typewriters, eventually they will produce something worth reading."

The internet has proved this wrong.

Offline SD67

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2008, 07:58:06 PM »
Life is an experience. It has NOTHING to do with right and wrong, good or evil. How we conduct ourselves depends entirely on how we view our own value.
Religion is merely a social construct that helps to define a cohesive set of values that tie a particular community together and equip it to deal with the environment in which they live. When prehistoric man discovered they had a better chance of surviving if they banded together, they began to share their interpretations of the unusual things they noticed in their daily lives, and how they overcame these obstacles. As a means necessary for survival they were passed down orally through the generations, these tales became legends which in the passage of time became woven together as a guide for survival and provided simple explanations for the more unusual inexplicable phenomenon attributed to the supernatural. Different perspectives defined different cultural groups, each having their own belief and these beliefs soon became religions.
Wars would be fought between different cultural groups based entirely on who's golden calf was the biggest and shiniest. The only reason most of the world today is either Christian, Moslem or Jewish is because they had bigger more efficient means of killing those that did not follow their beliefs.
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