Pickers and runners please help me understand...

[Steve]

He isn't.  But he is painting SCCA as some guy whose SA failed him.. And that's not SCCA's point.   SCCA's point is that the K4 earned a SHALLOW victory.  A victory that's no more worth bragging about than a vulch.

Well, Scca's point is that he feels this style of play is not what the game was designed for, and that it is somehow inferior to how he plays. This is where I became interested.

Pickers and runners, please help me understand what is the fascination with this style of game play.  Maybe it's a "your $15" thing, but what possible enjoyment can someone get from only engaging cons when they are already engaged and running from a 1v1 when you have an E advantage?  To me, 90% of the fun is the fight, not the winner.  I am so confused..

My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.

[Ghastly]

No... Some players do almost nothing but fly that timid way, and it boggles the mind of other players.  Hence the puzzlement to the point of starting a thread asking for others' help in making sense of it.

SCCA's query is about making sense of players who can't recognize that opportunity.

I can't honestly believe that the "puzzlement" you are referring to is anything but disingenuous given the snubs when referring to the players who play that way, including the one from SCCA who started the thread.

ink - because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate.  Hehe! Hehe! makes em feel like a man.
Sunka ... people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs
olskool2 ...it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Scca ... My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.


In my opinion, Scca inadvertently discloses the point of the entire thread when he says

"Only once in a while, when I don't have the time or patience to play with a pick/runner do I get frustrated."

Lusche opined earlier that this thread is really a disguised rant, and I tend to agree. Just because some (or maybe even most) pilots in AH are into instant gratification, why is it so "disturbing" that a player - who may have had any number of reasons for doing so - took another route to enjoyment (assuming of course that he enjoyed his flying)? 

<S>

[Delirium]

Fly anyway you want, have fun.

That said, I don't have much in the way of respect for the guy who takes little risk to get scalps.

[Anaxogoras]

moot is spot on  

some of the flying that went on during the ava Bofb setup was as described.

Great fights against decent emil flyers thrila, gian, bubi even came down from alt in his 110 to tangle with me.  Gavagai seems to have some sort of built in defence mechanism of never engaging unless with numbers.  Its smart/cowardly whatever angle you look at it.  live on the edge every now and again and you might enjoy it as others have stated.

Pffft Bruv.  You were simply sore because I flew my airplane's strengths and didn't get low and slow with you like those "brave" pilots.  As for flying with friendlies, you were one of the best examples of that in the BoB ava.  You would act all puffed up and manly as soon as you had 2-3 friends to chase me with.

I certainly enjoyed shooting you down because you whined about it on 200.

----------------

I can't honestly believe that the "puzzlement" you are referring to is anything but disingenuous given the snubs when referring to the players who play that way, including the one from SCCA who started the thread.

ink - because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate.  Hehe! Hehe! makes em feel like a man.
Sunka ... people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs
olskool2 ...it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Scca ... My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.


In my opinion, Scca inadvertently discloses the point of the entire thread when he says 

Lusche opined earlier that this thread is really a disguised rant, and I tend to agree. Just because some (or maybe even most) pilots in AH are into instant gratification, why is it so "disturbing" that a player - who may have had any number of reasons for doing so - took another route to enjoyment (assuming of course that he enjoyed his flying)? 

<S>

Well put ghastly.  The one point I'd add is that this thread is full of invective and informal fallacies like slanting and ad hominem.  What people here call "timid" is usually "temperance."  Aristotle talked about being in the middle of two extremes as the ideal of the virtuous man.  In our case, we have three T's : timidity, temperance and temerity.  The vitriolic ones here want everyone to fly dissimilar aircraft in the same way, which would be a kind of temerity.

[Steve]

I can't honestly believe that the "puzzlement" you are referring to is anything but disingenuous given the snubs when referring to the players who play that way, including the one from SCCA who started the thread.

ink - because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate.  Hehe! Hehe! makes em feel like a man.
Sunka ... people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs
olskool2 ...it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Scca ... My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.


In my opinion, Scca inadvertently discloses the point of the entire thread when he says  

Lusche opined earlier that this thread is really a disguised rant, and I tend to agree. Just because some (or maybe even most) pilots in AH are into instant gratification, why is it so "disturbing" that a player - who may have had any number of reasons for doing so - took another route to enjoyment (assuming of course that he enjoyed his flying)? 

<S>

Another that gets it.

[633DH98]

Fly to live -> Staid Simulation
Fly to fight (cartoon planes and lives are cheap) -> Gamey Game

This post -> me just being a muckrake.   

[Zazen13]

Well, Scca's point is that he feels this style of play is not what the game was designed for, and that it is somehow inferior to how he plays. This is where I became interested.

Yes, in actuality, as I have mentioned, fighter aircraft and therefore their equivalent models in AH were specifically designed to mutually assist one another. Ironically, in direct opposition to gamer's tendency toward "internet bravado", fighter planes and the tactics developed to be used by them were, almost without exception, conceived to be employed in mutual support and close coordination with 1 or more friendlies. Virtually the entire span of tactical fighter dogma is predicated upon more than two participating aircraft operating in such a way as to ensure that an enemy fighter engaging one foe must, in turn, present himself as a target to another. The mythology of the 1 vs 1 duel, where there is no risk of rendering yourself vulnerable to a 3rd party attack, is a contrivance of complete gaming fiction. Fighter combat and aircraft from their inception to the present have always been about operating in a mutually supportive way.  

[Scca]

I can't honestly believe that the "puzzlement" you are referring to is anything but disingenuous given the snubs when referring to the players who play that way, including the one from SCCA who started the thread.

ink - because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate.  Hehe! Hehe! makes em feel like a man.
Sunka ... people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs
olskool2 ...it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Scca ... My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.




Lusche opined earlier that this thread is really a disguised rant, and I tend to agree. Just because some (or maybe even most) pilots in AH are into instant gratification, why is it so "disturbing" that a player - who may have had any number of reasons for doing so - took another route to enjoyment (assuming of course that he enjoyed his flying)? 

<S>

Actually, I do really desire to know the answer, but don't think I am going to get a real one here.  What I have assembled so far from these pages of posts is it boils down to personal preference, and I may never understand it.   It all comes down to the "it's my $15" theory I think.

Each gains enjoyment in their own way.  The mental defect comment was a little strong maybe, wish I could take that one back, but it seems by the comments I am not the only one who thinks that way.

Thanks again for all the thoughts posted here.

[Anaxogoras]

Scca, what would count as a real answer?  If you really want to go psychological, temperament theory might give you something to work with.

[Scca]

Scca, what would count as a real answer?  If you really want to go psychological, temperament theory might give you something to work with.

The closest to a real answer so far has been Zazen I think.  Though this isn't real life, perhaps people desire get into the game so much that they think they are in real combat (you know, the leather helmet, fan behind monitor crowd).  To them, it's not about the fight, but the landing, and I am cool with that. 

Some day I hope to understand, because in understanding we learn.

[Anaxogoras]

Wow, was that your evil twin yesterday?  You seem like a new man with a positive attitude!

For my part, I fly however I can kill as expediently as possible, and that depends on the aircraft I'm in.  Every now and then, I fly a 109F in the arena (it's been a while) for base defense, and the way I fly it would probably win the approval of my detractors.  It goes without saying that I die a lot more that way...

To them, it's not about the fight, but the landing, and I am cool with that.

You do realize that there's a whole cadre of virtual pilots here that think landing is unmanly too, right?

[moot]

I can't honestly believe that the "puzzlement" you are referring to is anything but disingenuous given the snubs when referring to the players who play that way, including the one from SCCA who started the thread.

ink - because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate.  Hehe! Hehe! makes em feel like a man.
Sunka ... people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs
olskool2 ...it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Scca ... My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.


In my opinion, Scca inadvertently discloses the point of the entire thread when he says  

Lusche opined earlier that this thread is really a disguised rant, and I tend to agree. Just because some (or maybe even most) pilots in AH are into instant gratification, why is it so "disturbing" that a player - who may have had any number of reasons for doing so - took another route to enjoyment (assuming of course that he enjoyed his flying)? 

<S>

Agree to disagree I guess.  SCCA isn't just ranting.  He's ranting about something that makes no sense, and like I said he's asking for someone to fill the missing part in his puzzle, to make sense out of it.  I think it's disingenuous to pretend there's enjoyment in being an absolute timid pick tard, to pretend that that enjoyment's on par with the enjoyment of the fight for all it (the fight) is worth.  The same way some pretend there is enjoyment out of sinking a CV with a great furball attached to it rather than some other CV in the middle of nowhere. Those guys are after the gratification of having an effect on others' fun, even if that gratification is the result of nothing more than pushing "B" from 10kft above the furball, with no more effort to show for it than calibrating the F6 bombsight.  This is the same state of mind that makes internet hackers get their rocks off by screwing with the whole world with their "denial of service" attacks on random websites.
Those guys are after nothing else than boinking with others' fun, at the expense of AIR COMBAT.  The game would be better off without them.

[DaveJ]

Well, Scca's point is that he feels this style of play is not what the game was designed for, and that it is somehow inferior to how he plays. This is where I became interested.

It is inferior. Picking and running is the shallowest form of gameplay there is. That's pretty much the general consensus around the AH community.

[Scca]

Wow, was that your evil twin yesterday?  You seem like a new man with a positive attitude!

For my part, I fly however I can kill as expediently as possible, and that depends on the aircraft I'm in.  Every now and then, I fly a 109F in the arena (it's been a while) for base defense, and the way I fly it would probably win the approval of my detractors.  It goes without saying that I die a lot more that way...

You do realize that there's a whole cadre of virtual pilots here that think landing is unmanly too, right?

I may not agree with the style of play I am asking about, nor do I understand it, but do agree that it's their right to do so.  One day I will run into this guy and when I do, I will get in a K4, and see what he is really made of.  I have to do it this way as I am sure he hasn't big enough swingers to DA me co E/alt.  He may be better, but judging from the scores page, I better do it before summer vacation is over and his account is closed.

[Zazen13]

The closest to a real answer so far has been Zazen I think.  Though this isn't real life, perhaps people desire get into the game so much that they think they are in real combat (you know, the leather helmet, fan behind monitor crowd).  To them, it's not about the fight, but the landing, and I am cool with that. 

Some day I hope to understand, because in understanding we learn.

I think you've almost got it. But, it's not about the landing or not about the fight. It's about working the entire engagement not just a single enemy you've arbitrarily chosen to engage. It's about making all the right decisions at all the right times to kill as efficiently as possible while at the same time retaining the initiative.

For example...A TnB'er might think, "I am going to kill plane X", then engage him then sequentially engage another depending on the outcome. An initiative fighter might instead look at the entire engagement, sector or area attempting to work out how to play with potentially all of the enemy non-sequentially for maximum effectiveness while not getting limited to the point where he has to turn with one particular plane or die. Think of it as looking at the entire forest vs. just looking at just one tree. Sure, we could subjectively say some of the initiative fighter's kills are not as qualitatively "pure" in the chivalrous sense, some will be, some won't. The fun is in playing the big picture, working the initiative into opportunities to kill and getting away with it.