Total war versus what we have today.

[Hangtime]

Not really necessary to 'bomb 'em into the stone age'.... just destroy their relevance. For the middle east it's their oil... they sell it to us, use the money to arm insurgents and terrorists and kill americans.

Cure... get off the damn diet of mideast oil. Stop protecting the Saudi shipping lanes.

But... since our government ain't about to threaten the oil company profits with an emargo of middle east oil or denial of that oil to China or India...

...well, status quo; as they say.

[BnZ]

Slipknot:

While there is some truth to what you are saying, one major difference between the end of WWII is who we are trying to beat into submission. The Germans and the Japanese were highly organized, trained to "get with the program". When that program was Nazism/Japanese Imperialism, they were obedient. When the authority was America, they were also obedient.

Compare this to Iraq and Afghanistan...both countries simmering unstable timebombs waiting to go off, centuries behind the West or Japan in any social way that counts. The brutality of Saddam/Taliban was the ONLY effective organizational tool. America will not "go there", nor do I WANT us to.

[slipknot]

That I can't argue with BnZ...

I suppose that the concept of 'nothing to lose' counts here too, and with it comes the loss of the intimidation factor.

Now this is a whole new topic, but perhaps hangtime's broader concept can be applied. The entire region lives off of oil. Be it directly or indirectly. The vast majority of wealth and whatever organization and social developement they do have, it's thanks in large part to the trillions they've harvested from oil.

For a long time I've been an advocate of economic war on the entire region. Slowly or gradually pull out of there, become independant and let them sink back into the desert wholesale... Yes, we're all aware that Dubai will survive... Hopefully that will not be enough to keep alive the culture of religious fanaticism.

[VonMessa]

Huh? Who's coming over here and blowing things up and killing innocent people? Who's responsible? Who was hiding in Sudan, Afghanistan and now allegedly in Pakistan? Do you think if we vaporized those three, that terrorist scumbags would just automagically vanish? What about all others? Yeah right, they're all busy assembling IEDs in Iraq. Get real.

With yearly supplemental budget of 170 billions in average (what we spend now for Iraq and Afghanistan), we could hunt and capture most of those scumbags long ago.

But no, we rather bomb and rebuild Iraq for who knows what reason and we don't even get cheap oil out of it. Now that's horse manure.

Ah, yes.   The kinder, gentler, U.S. Armed forces. 

A hunting trip it is, then 

We could be like assassins.  A U.S. subsidized death squad, picking and choosing who lives and dies.  Very selective.  That will make us much more popular than a plain old military invasion has already made us.

[2bighorn]

Ah, yes.   The kinder, gentler, U.S. Armed forces.

Don't think any country ever had military to be loved.

A hunting trip it is, then 

Sure, we hunt DUI drivers, why not terrorists. Or is there moral abyss in between somewhere?

Very selective.

Correct. Way more effective, cheaper and faster than "Shock and Awe" with all the "collateral damage".
 

That will make us much more popular than a plain old military invasion has already made us.

We lost popularity contest long ago. Time to kick bastages where it hurts.

[33Vortex]

Or is there more to it?

Yes, a lot more to come there is, of total war.

[lasersailor184]

"Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb 10. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourist, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that is becomes unthinkable to attack Americans."

The point of total war is to make the consequences of disobediance so horrible, that people wouldn't dare dream to do otherwise.



I believe that the price of messing with American Citizens, American Interests and American Allies (who sign on board) should be pure violent retribution at least 10x worse than the damage done to us.

Take for example, the Iranian embassy.  The iranians happened to capture a few Soviets back in their hay day.  They demanded Russian compliance as well as American.  The next day the russians went into iran, and captured the families of the hostage takers.  After several real hands were mailed to the sons, the russians were released post haste.

War is a horrible violent thing.  It shouldn't be anything but.  To try to wage war and be liked at the same time is to get laughed at.


Of course, the only time most Americans gladly welcomed war and extremely open violence was under the hands of extremely manipulative Fascists.

[Yeager]

Hang,

you back in game?

[33Vortex]

"Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb 10. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourist, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that is becomes unthinkable to attack Americans."

Of course, the only time most Americans gladly welcomed war and extremely open violence was under the hands of extremely manipulative Fascists.

There is so much irony in these two statements. First off, the phenomenon "global terrorism" is a hoax, a paranoia delusion so that... -> The second statement you think is true, but look at what is happening in the US now. The domestic population be stripped of their rights in preparation for the "New World Order". It sounds like a cliché, you just wait 20 years and see if it was. Then you'll be too late to react, much too late.

"...extremely manipulative Fascists." 

[DREDIOCK]

Low Intensity conflicts are exceedingly profitable for the corporate entities that own our government.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qfej4q9kpRI

[lasersailor184]

There is so much irony in these two statements. First off, the phenomenon "global terrorism" is a hoax, a paranoia delusion so that... -> The second statement you think is true, but look at what is happening in the US now. The domestic population be stripped of their rights in preparation for the "New World Order". It sounds like a cliché, you just wait 20 years and see if it was. Then you'll be too late to react, much too late.

"...extremely manipulative Fascists." 

No.  The incredibly ironic thing is that you think you can enter into this conversation with very little idea of United States history.

First off, you wrongly think that 'Fascist' means extreme right winger.  It does not.

Second, anyone who fears this "New World Order" has no grasp of actual history to see that it has come, and failed MANY TIMES.  Most anyone who does have a grasp of history, does not fear this "New World Order" apocolypse, because nothing is happening like it has in the past.

[33Vortex]

I'm not going into details of your post because they are irrelevant when shooting at the wrong target. The deal is, we've never been so many people on this planet as we are now, so yes, you are right nothing is happening like it has in the past. What we are about to see the next 50 years or so is the inevitable end of economic growth and population growth, as we run out of resources to sustain growth rates. While at the same time quite possibly the death of 50% of the world population or more.

That is what you completely miss, because you are not aware of the very basic facts why this is happening.

[Hangtime]

Hang,

you back in game?

Nah... not yet. Thinkin' about it tho... need some new 'puter gear and controllers.

Hang

[Hangtime]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qfej4q9kpRI

Yup... Eisenhower's Farewell address.... heluva savvy Politician... and as a 5 star general in charge of the largest military operations in history, he was more than just a little conversant with the dangers of the military/industrial threat to government. Nobody listened. He wuz right... and we have lost.

*sigh*

Thanks fer cheerin me up.

Hang

[BnZ]

I'm not going into details of your post because they are irrelevant when shooting at the wrong target. The deal is, we've never been so many people on this planet as we are now, so yes, you are right nothing is happening like it has in the past. What we are about to see the next 50 years or so is the inevitable end of economic growth and population growth, as we run out of resources to sustain growth rates. While at the same time quite possibly the death of 50% of the world population or more.

That is what you completely miss, because you are not aware of the very basic facts why this is happening.

I can see this happening Vortex. Without veering too far into another controversial topics, some "groups" are already ahead of the curve on ZPG/population decline...and some aren't. The implications of the fact that the population is shrinking in places of relative civilization like Western Europe, Japan, and China while growing in bastions of human suffering and trouble like the Middle East and Africa are not entirely sunny.