The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar

[Vudak]

I am sick and tired like so many others when it comes to people who shoot their mouths off saying "it is the pilot and not the plane".  That is such BS.  The plane used is far more a factor in this sim that ANY of the "aces" will admit to.  Just how many aces take a P40B?  A Hurricane I?  A Spit I or V?  A Bf109E?  Stop the BS and own up to the facts: the plane in which a "player-pilot" flies is far more important than any of the "l337 skilz" some of you "slobberdonkeyz" tout.  The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.     

Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities.  NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane.  NONE.  Go look at the stats.

Stop the BS.     

Well, it sure seems like you're equating good rank with good stick...  Which is very often not true at all...

But, assuming you aren't...  Though I can't speak for anyone, I would bet a big part of an La7 or K4's appeal to a good stick is that it gives them the ability to run people down and force them to fight...  I'm kind of doubting the performance edge is their first priority.  They don't need it.

[Steve]

Imanner.     

Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities.  NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane.  NONE.  Go look at the stats.

Stop the BS.     

Well, I'm not claiming to be an ace but it sounds like a fun experiment. I'll fly the p40.*

*please, no chest thumping in response.  I'm not claiming to be skilled in any way, I'm just willing to try it out for fun.

[Gixer]

The it's not the plane it's the stick argument is of course fairly true to a certain degree however more accurately the difference in the rides basically equates to easy mode vs hard mode. Top tier rides/perk rides = easy mode  High eny rides = hard mode.

Easy mode you can make a dozen mistakes and still come out with a win, hard mode make one mistake and your back in the tower.

Of course the most common argument amongst experienced players for flying easy mode is "I always fly against the hordes" yes of course you do... 


<S>...-Gixer

[Gixer]

The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.     

Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities.  NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane.  NONE.  Go look at the stats.

Stop the BS.     

I wouldn't call myself an Ace nor do I give a toss about low fighter scores. But I do only fly the Yak-9T which is far away from being a top tier ride. However I can do fairly well in it against on a regular basis against all the top tier rides you just mentioned with or without experienced sticks flying them.

While I agree to a point that some well known sticks that do fly nothing but perk rides or top tier rides do well because of their easy ride of choice I wouldn't say they might necessarily suck in something less. Majority probably would because they are use to making mistakes and getting away with it but a few will be deadly no matter what they fly.


<S>...-Gixer

[Gixer]

Double post...

[Bruv119]

I am sick and tired like so many others when it comes to people who shoot their mouths off saying "it is the pilot and not the plane".  That is such BS.  The plane used is far more a factor in this sim that ANY of the "aces" will admit to.  Just how many aces take a P40B?  A Hurricane I?  A Spit I or V?  A Bf109E?  Stop the BS and own up to the facts: the plane in which a "player-pilot" flies is far more important than any of the "l337 skilz" some of you "slobberdonkeyz" tout.  The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.     

Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities.  NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane.  NONE.  Go look at the stats.

Stop the BS.     

"The quality of the crate matters little. Success depends upon who sits in it."

Baron Manfred von Richthofen


always knew the red baron was full of BS!

[SectorNine50]

In real life the pilot would make a huge amount more of a difference because the pilot's physical fitness comes into play.  A shorter pilot who is in great shape can generally pull many more G's than a really tall couch potato.

[Oldman731]

Two guys, one a master craftsman, the other just an average guy.

True enough.  I think SmokingLoon's point was that, given roughly equal pilots, the planes make a huge difference.

- oldman

[RTHolmes]

"its the plane not the pilot" wrong

"its the pilot not the plane" wrong

keep hearing these, if you're comparing planes, assume equal pilots. if you're comparing pilots, assume equal planes. how hard is that? 

"its the plane and the pilot"


got to agree with the 262, got roped by one once, otherwise never been killed by a 262 i knew was there.

[SmokinLoon]

Let me offer an analogy that highlights the flaw in your reasoning.

Two guys, one a master craftsman, the other just an average guy.

The master craftsman is limited to manual hand tools (saws, screw drivers and such).

The average guy gets to go to Lowes and buys every new power tool he desires.

Both set out to build you a bookshelf. You have to decide which bookshelf you must buy prior to it being made.

Which guy gets your money?

Tools don't make the craftsman, skill makes the craftsman.

The other guy is just a duffer with a garage full of tools. The tools don't make the bookshelf.

A poor craftsman will make a poor bookshelf, regardless of what tools he owns.

Stop by the TA tomorrow evening after 8 PM your time and we'll put the analogy to the test.


My regards,

Widewing

Very valid point.  However, we're talking about a sim/game and not building a bookshelf.  Of course people are going to put their money on the maturity and expertise of a well seasoned wood worker vs the new or average guy with no experience.  The same can be said for the surgeon who has been practicing for 20 years vs the new MD right out of med school.  Everyone understands that arguement.  Heck, I even preach the same thing when dealing with students, customers, and the public.

The one thing that simply can not be taught is experience. 

My whole point is that in this sim/game the arguement that it is %100 the pilot and not at all the plane is simply incorrect.  I'm simply annoyed that people actually believe that.  If it were true, we'd see far more of the 30+ ENY fighters in the sky.  People will take a "l337" plane and pick in a furball, saddle up, and shoot down a "lesser" plane and call it "skilz". 

I'll look you up in the TA sometime.  I'm actually heading to Canada this coming Sat to do some fishing for 4 days.   

[Urchin]

I am sick and tired like so many others when it comes to people who shoot their mouths off saying "it is the pilot and not the plane".  That is such BS.  The plane used is far more a factor in this sim that ANY of the "aces" will admit to.  Just how many aces take a P40B?  A Hurricane I?  A Spit I or V?  A Bf109E?  Stop the BS and own up to the facts: the plane in which a "player-pilot" flies is far more important than any of the "l337 skilz" some of you "slobberdonkeyz" tout.  The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.     

Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities.  NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane.  NONE.  Go look at the stats.

Stop the BS.     

You won't find too many people admitting this... but you are absolutely right. 

[BnZ]

Please, I don't mean this offensively, but please let me highlight two flaws in your reasoning.

You went with "avg. Joe" vrs. "Master Carpenter", which I don't think is a realistic cross-section. Fine, you say the "Master" sticks can shoot down any avg. Joe flying anything with any airplane in the set. I have reason to think that even this is not nessecarily the case, but I won't go there, got burned on that issue.

But still, on average fights of differential skill will be more like "Noob who doesn't even know the basics" vs. "Guy who does" and "Guy who knows basic ACM" vrs. "Guy who knows basic ACM but has a little more experience". At this level, you can have situations where a guy who could shoot down the other guy 90% of the time in a matched plane "duel" will instead loose 90% of the time in certain mismatches.

Interestingly, what you say about the difference between power tools and hand tools illuminates my point about EW vrs. LW aircraft. Power tools are not nessecarily designed to make a more finely crafted piece of furniture than hand-tools.  What they do make for is greater speed and ease. This is similar to how LW planes are vastly superior for what historically the preffered attack (the surprise high-speed bounce) but not nessecarily superior or even equal for the prolonged engagement.

Let me offer an analogy that highlights the flaw in your reasoning.

Two guys, one a master craftsman, the other just an average guy.

The master craftsman is limited to manual hand tools (saws, screw drivers and such).

The average guy gets to go to Lowes and buys every new power tool he desires.

Both set out to build you a bookshelf. You have to decide which bookshelf you must buy prior to it being made.

Which guy gets your money?

Tools don't make the craftsman, skill makes the craftsman.

The other guy is just a duffer with a garage full of tools. The tools don't make the bookshelf.

A poor craftsman will make a poor bookshelf, regardless of what tools he owns.

Stop by the TA tomorrow evening after 8 PM your time and we'll put the analogy to the test.


My regards,

Widewing

[Anaxogoras]

Back in January I tried out the 109E, Spit1, A6M2, P-40B, etc.  Needless to say it was a very humbling experience.  The only people I killed were the worst pilots who were dumb enough to turn with me or who had absolutely no SA whatsoever.  In the late war rides I do slightly better.

Bnz, you did an impressive job of breaking down that analogy.  The only thing I can add is this:  Rather than power tools vs hand tools, the analogy should be that the master craftsman has dull, worn-out tools, and the merely competent craftsman has precision tools.

[Vudak]

Ok, where the heck is Furball with his Val vs. K4 film...

[Urchin]

The simple truth is that one a basic level of competence is reached, the plane is far more important than the pilot. 

It is possible to quibble over the details all you want, but the simple basic truth remains unchanged. 

Is it impossible to kill a Spixteen in a P-40B?  No, absolutely not.  As long as the Spixteen pilot is absolutely brainless, it is certainly possible.  If the Spixteen pilot has even an inkling of a clue, he will know that it almost doesn't matter what he does, he will be able to kill the P-40 - and it doesn't matter who is in the P-40.  You could give a good teacher (Widewing, Ghosth.. don't really know any other trainers... but any patient person with a clue) a couple days with a rank noob, teach him how to seize every advantage (including the plane - i.e. an La-7 or Spixteen), put the guy in the DA with Leviathn and the rank noob will win 9 out of 10, as long as he keeps his wits about him.  Levi would be bored out of his whoopee skull, but he would die, every time.  About the best he could hope for would be a MAD HO joust, but even then the Spixteen packs 10x the firepower.. so I wouldn't even recommend that.

Why do you think some planes just don't see ANY use in the MAs?  A good pilot can take an 'average' plane and do well in it.  A great pilot can take a crappy plane with one good attribute and have moderate success in it.  Certain planes (P-40B, Spit I, 109E, that crowd) don't even have a single good attribute to exploit against a mostly incompetent opponent in a 1945 plane, nor the firepower to take advantage of the countless mistakes the initial opponent will make.