South Osetia under attack

[Vudak]

When I was a kid, my folks taught me that 'just because Billy gets away with crapping in the wheaties without having his bellybutton paddled, doesn't mean you can'.

Your intent is to indicate that Russia's actions in Georgia are excusable by a moronic dodge like 'precedent'? It didn't work... when I was a kid, or for you; now, and it won't for the Russians, either.

I take it "understandable" is not a word you fully understand?

[E25280]

Sure, it follows a certain Russian logic. We want it, we'll take it, we're on the UNSC and you can't do jack about it.

That logic.

Pretty much, yes.

I just don't think you can ignore the Kosovo situation as a pre-cursor.  I think the Russians are trying to make a point that it is not a one way street with NATO and the west setting the standards of what is and is not acceptable, and whose territory should be forcibly split and whose shouldn't.  Maybe if there had not been an independence declaration in Kosovo, Russia would still be sitting on the sideline in Osetia.

[E25280]

When I was a kid, my folks taught me that 'just because Billy gets away with crapping in the wheaties without having his bellybutton paddled, doesn't mean you can'.

Your intent is to indicate that Russia's actions in Georgia are excusable by a moronic dodge like 'precedent'? It didn't work... when I was a kid, or for you; now, and it won't for the Russians, either.

  Did I excuse them?

[Elfie]

Except of course that in this case there is no possible reason to justify their actions.

Unlike the Serbian slaughter, there's no proof of any Georgian slaughter.

You can wear your blinders, point only to the result and pretend it's the same but again, that's a ludicrous position.

Exactly.

I just don't think you can ignore the Kosovo situation as a pre-cursor.

In order to compare 2 incidents, you have to compare them as a whole. In the former Yugoslavia genocide and ethnic cleansing was rampant on all three sides. (Serbian, Croats and Muslims all participated to one degree or another.) In Kosovo, NATO said the genocide and ethnic cleansing stops here. The end result was that Kosovo gained independence. However, w/o the genocide and ethic cleansing, Kosovo still would be a part of Serbia today there would have been no involvement by NATO. (There was undisputed evidence of the ethnic cleansing going on in Kosovo.)

In South Osetia there is no evidence at this time of genocide or ethnic cleansing. Only allegations. There is no evidence of who started this round of hostilities, again, only allegations.

[E25280]

In order to compare 2 incidents, you have to compare them as a whole. In the former Yugoslavia genocide and ethnic cleansing was rampant on all three sides. (Serbian, Croats and Muslims all participated to one degree or another.) In Kosovo, NATO said the genocide and ethnic cleansing stops here. The end result was that Kosovo gained independence. However, w/o the genocide and ethic cleansing, Kosovo still would be a part of Serbia today there would have been no involvement by NATO. (There was undisputed evidence of the ethnic cleansing going on in Kosovo.)

All fair, but do you believe that makes any difference to the Russians?  I doubt that registers with them at all.  Nor do I expect anyone in the "west" will be able to convince them that there is a difference.  Quite the opposite, actually.  If NATO tries to support Georgia's right to keep Osetia while supporting Kosovo's independence from Serbia, I fully suspect Russia will consider it to be "selective application" of the principle of a population's right to self-determination, and it will feed into the persecution complex the Russian psyche already seems to possess.

Nothing good will come of this.

[Hangtime]

I take it "understandable" is not a word you fully understand?

Not when it's used as an excuse for the inexcusable.

[FrodeMk3]

I just saw this bit:

By Tom Lasseter and Jonathan S. Landay, McClatchy Newspapers
2 hours, 52 minutes ago
 


GORI, Georgia — Russia pressed its invasion of Georgia by land, sea and air for a third day Sunday, striking far beyond contested South Ossetia as the Kremlin brushed aside a cease-fire offer and disputed Georgia's claim to have pulled its forces out of the rebel enclave.

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 Russian jets bombed near Tbilisi , the Georgian capital, including civilian housing, military bases, factories and the international airport, according to Georgia officials. Also, Russian warships deployed off the Black Sea coast, sinking a Georgian missile boat that approached them, state-run Russian news media said.

Russian troops and tanks, meanwhile, took control of Tskinvali, the devastated capital of South Ossetia , according to Russian state-run media, and there were reports that an armored column tried to push out of the separatist enclave's boundary toward the city of Gori before being turned back by Georgian forces. The military campaign also expanded, with Russian troops entering Abkhazia , another separatist province.

Tensions between the United States and Russia sharpened as the Bush administration suggested that Russia's objective goes beyond securing South Ossetia to the ousting of President Mikhail Saakashvili , who has close ties to the United States and is seeking admission to NATO .

Russia denied the charge, repeating that it is obliged to stop "numerous war crimes" against civilians, many of who carry Russian passports, end a "major humanitarian disaster," and restore the situation to where it was before a Georgian military incursion on Friday.

Georgian police erected a checkpoint on the main road outside Gori, and warned travelers that the situation around the city of 50,000, home to a major military base, was too dangerous. During the day, Russian warplanes strafed the city.

Scores of Georgian tanks and troop-carrying trucks roared down the road in the direction of the Russian advance in the pre-dawn dark Monday. Dozens of other trucks were parked on the roadside. Four truck-mounted missile launchers sat just outside Gori, where troops shouted for cars to turn off their lights.

Georgian troops moved last week to seize South Ossetia , a mountainous enclave bordering Russia , after clashes with separatist fighters. Moscow , saying Georgian forces killed Russian peacekeeping troops and civilians, responded by launching missile, artillery and air attacks and pouring hundreds of tanks, armored vehicles and troops across the border.

The tiny former Soviet republic, nestled between Turkey and Russia , is considered strategically important because it is located on key energy and trade routes to central Asia . Russia , which ruled Georgia for nearly two centuries before the Soviet Union's collapse in 1991, considers the region as its backyard and opposes Georgia's admission to NATO .

Separatists began agitating for the secession of South Ossetia in the Soviet Union's waning days, igniting clashes with Georgian security forces that continued after Georgia became independent in 1991. Russia deployed peacekeeping troops in 1992. Negotiations to resolve continuing disputes have made no progress.

Russian troops have also been protecting Abkhazia , another rebel enclave, and reinforcements were added over the weekend, the military said. Moscow -backed rebels loosed "massive artillery fire" on Sunday at Georgian units just inside the province, an Abkhaz defense official told Interfax, a Russian state news service. Saakashvili accused the Russians of moving 100 tanks into Abkhazia .

As Russia moved more troops and tanks across its border into South Ossetia on Sunday, Saakashvili announced a withdrawal of Georgia troops from the province.

Georgia , he said, was also proclaiming a cease-fire, was ready to have it forces return to their positions before the fighting erupted and would sign an agreement for a peaceful resolution of the dispute.

"We need to stop hostility. We don't need further military action. We need to stop it. We need to bring back peace. And a cease-fire is about both sides," Saakashvili said on CNN .

But Russian officials rejected Saakashvili's claim of a troop withdrawal, saying that Georgian forces were continuing to fight.

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Grigory Karasin , speaking to reporters in Moscow , said that Moscow would discuss "all further issues" once Georgia pulled all of its forces out of "the combat zone" and immediately signed "a binding agreement on the non-use of force."

The United States and the European Union stepped up diplomatic efforts to end the bloodshed, estimated by Russians to have claimed more than 2,000 lives.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was in touch with senior Georgian, Russian and European officials. French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner , whose country is the current EU president, flew into Tbilisi on a peace mission only 30 minutes after the Russian air strike on the international airport.

At the same time, the Bush administration, which has equipped and trained the Georgian army, sharpened its response to what it called Russia's "disproportionate" response over South Ossetia .

U.S. C-17s began flying home the 2,000 Georgian troops serving in Iraq . And Deputy National Security Advisor Jim Jeffrey , with President Bush in Beijing for the Olympics, warned "that if the disproportionate and dangerous escalation on the Russian side continues . . . this will have a significant long-term impact on U.S.-Russian relations."

Speaking at a meeting of the U.N. Security Council , U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad said Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov admitted in a phone call with Secretary of Rice that Moscow wants Saakashvili replaced.

"'Saakashvili must go,'" Khalizad quoted Lavrov as telling Rice.

Asked by Khalilizad if Russia sought "regime change," Russian Ambassador Vitali Churkin replied tartly, "Regime change is purely an American invention."

Khalilzad, whose native Afghanistan was invaded and occupied by the former Soviet Union in 1979, later told reporters: "The days of overthrowing leaders by military means in Europe , those days are gone."

U.S. military officials were alarmed by Sunday's developments, calling reports of Russia's movements in Gori and its possible attempts to overthrow Saakashvili's government "far beyond" its stated objectives, one senior military official told McClatchy .

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080810/wl_mcclatchy/3014671_1;_ylt=A9j8eOOKnp9ITn8AXwCspph4

I don't see where you guys' are really even drawing a connection between this and Bosnia, because in Bosnia, It was a NATO/UN intervention in a civil war. This, is an invasion by a foreign power with the aim of overthrowing/conquering a neighboring country. Especially, when you see where the Russians' are ignoring pleas for a cease-fire.

I wonder which carriers' we have on station in the Med right now...?

[Toad]

Pretty much, yes.

I just don't think you can ignore the Kosovo situation as a pre-cursor.  I think the Russians are trying to make a point that it is not a one way street with NATO and the west setting the standards of what is and is not acceptable, and whose territory should be forcibly split and whose shouldn't.  Maybe if there had not been an independence declaration in Kosovo, Russia would still be sitting on the sideline in Osetia.

Totally disagree. I think Boroda will drop by and pretty much confirm what I'm about to type in his own inimitable way.

The Russians would be doing what they are doing now in Osetia/Georgia if Nato/the West had never ever gone anywhere near the Serbian affair.

Put it another way: if the Serbian affair had never happened at all, they'd be doing what they're doing in Osetia/Georgia.

They're not making a point with the West. They acting in their national interest to control resources in the region.

Any wagers on the price of oil tomorrow?

[FrodeMk3]

Totally disagree. I think Boroda will drop by and pretty much confirm what I'm about to type in his own inimitable way.

The Russians would be doing what they are doing now in Osetia/Georgia if Nato/the West had never ever gone anywhere near the Serbian affair.

Put it another way: if the Serbian affair had never happened at all, they'd be doing what they're doing in Osetia/Georgia.

They're not making a point with the West. They acting in their national interest to control resources in the region.

Any wagers on the price of oil tomorrow?

Too much depends' on whatever actions' the U.S. takes, Toad.

[E25280]

Totally disagree. I think Boroda will drop by and pretty much confirm what I'm about to type in his own inimitable way.

The Russians would be doing what they are doing now in Osetia/Georgia if Nato/the West had never ever gone anywhere near the Serbian affair.

Put it another way: if the Serbian affair had never happened at all, they'd be doing what they're doing in Osetia/Georgia.

They're not making a point with the West. They acting in their national interest to control resources in the region.

I won't deny the possibility this may have happened anyway.  But if you look at the language they are using in Frode's post, it is clear to me they are throwing all our "reasons" for Kosovo back at us.  They are claiming war crimes against the Georgian president, for goodness sake.  What did the "West" do with Serbian President Milosevic?

Still looks like a tit-for-tat to me.

And no, Hangtime, I did not say that makes it right.  

[Toad]

$10 to your favorite charity or mine, me wagering that the US will NOT take military action involving US units in combat.

We may fly in supplies, we may supply some special forces or a few advisors. You WILL NOT see regular US combat forces engage Russian forces at even company level.

We may try to talk them out of it but I doubt the Russians care very much what we say.

I'll go further and say that even if we were not involved in any way in Afghanistan or Iraq right now, you still would not see US combat units fighting Russian combat units in Georgia or South Osetia.

[Toad]

I won't deny the possibility this may have happened anyway.

I would change that to probability.

They use Kosovo as a fig leaf to cover their nakedness. It's all they have but it's still a fig leaf.

[Hangtime]

There's the other Gorilla in the region.

Ukraine.

Wonder what they'll do?

[Toad]

Nothing.

Well, OK, they'll talk loud and wave their hands a lot.

[Suave]

Horsepucky.

More russian propaganda..   

No Georgians are shoveling dirt on mass graves. Georgians have not been practicing ethnic cleansing.

The horrific circumstances that lead us into the Serbian situation on the moslem side differ HUGELY with what's happening in Georgia.

But what do you think would happen in S. Ossetia if there were no peace keepers there? How is Georgia going to assimulate S. Ossetia where virtually the entire population hates georgia, and the feeling is mutual? Ossetia was divided in two by the soviet union, the north in one state, the south stuck with georgia. They are not georgians, they have their own language which was banned by the georgian government that they got stuck with after the USSR disolved. Ossetia was ossetia before there was a soviet union. But most importantly, why don't they deserve the right to self determination?

Possibly the most flagrant hypocrasy of the whole affair is that Georgia is capitalizing on the results of soviet oppression.