South Osetia under attack

[FrodeMk3]

$10 to your favorite charity or mine, me wagering that the US will NOT take military action involving US units in combat.

We may fly in supplies, we may supply some special forces or a few advisors. You WILL NOT see regular US combat forces engage Russian forces at even company level.

We may try to talk them out of it but I doubt the Russians care very much what we say.

I'll go further and say that even if we were not involved in any way in Afghanistan or Iraq right now, you still would not see US combat units fighting Russian combat units in Georgia or South Osetia.

Part of me wants to take your bet, part of me doesn't. That oil pipeline running through there is one thing. And, having a gov't. friendly to the U.S. in that region is another. However, other than maybe doing whatever we can with carrier airpower, I think that we don't have any assets' available to move to the region at this moment; Unless, of course, we can call on more help from the NATO nations. And I don't know how any of the Euro countries' will take this.

[FrodeMk3]

But what do you think would happen in S. Ossetia if there were no peace keepers there? How is Georgia going to assimulate S. Ossetia where virtually the entire population hates georgia, and the feeling is mutual? Ossetia was divided in two by the soviet union, the north in one state, the south stuck with georgia. They are not georgians, they have their own language which was banned by the georgian government that they got stuck with after the USSR disolved. Ossetia was ossetia before there was a soviet union. But most importantly, why don't they deserve the right to self determination?

Possibly the most flagrant hypocrasy of the whole affair is that Georgia is capitalizing on the results of soviet oppression.

Thank you, Suave. You just answered a question I asked about 2-3 pages' ago.

[Elfie]

But what do you think would happen in S. Ossetia if there were no peace keepers there? How is Georgia going to assimulate S. Ossetia where virtually the entire population hates georgia, and the feeling is mutual? Ossetia was divided in two by the soviet union, the north in one state, the south stuck with georgia. They are not georgians, they have their own language which was banned by the georgian government that they got stuck with after the USSR disolved. Ossetia was ossetia before there was a soviet union. But most importantly, why don't they deserve the right to self determination?

Possibly the most flagrant hypocrasy of the whole affair is that Georgia is capitalizing on the results of soviet oppression.

Do you have some links for this stuff? If so, I would be interested in reading them.

[Elfie]

All fair, but do you believe that makes any difference to the Russians?  I doubt that registers with them at all.  Nor do I expect anyone in the "west" will be able to convince them that there is a difference.  Quite the opposite, actually.  If NATO tries to support Georgia's right to keep Osetia while supporting Kosovo's independence from Serbia, I fully suspect Russia will consider it to be "selective application" of the principle of a population's right to self-determination, and it will feed into the persecution complex the Russian psyche already seems to possess.

Nothing good will come of this.

Doesn't really matter if it makes any difference to the Russians or not. The facts are the facts.

There was a history of ethnic cleansing and genocide throughout the region that used to be Yugoslavia. There is no history of that in Georgia, so the two situations are not similar.

[Suave]

Doesn't really matter if it makes any difference to the Russians or not. The facts are the facts.

There was a history of ethnic cleansing and genocide throughout the region that used to be Yugoslavia. There is no history of that in Georgia, so the two situations are not similar.

Actually there is a history of it if I recall correctly.

[Hangtime]

Possibly the most flagrant hypocrasy of the whole affair is that Georgia is capitalizing on the results of soviet oppression.

Horsecrap. Ossetia is a soviet construct. It's comparable to an Indian Reservation or a Tribal Enclave here in the US. He's a little history lesson:

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/63/129.html

The folks looking to 'capitalize' are the Russians, Suave.

[FrodeMk3]

Do you have some links for this stuff? If so, I would be interested in reading them.

I had to fall back on Wiki, but check this out Elfie:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians

[Elfie]

I had to fall back on Wiki, but check this out Elfie:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians

Thanks, checking it out now. (Nothing wrong with Wiki as long as the articles are documented.   )

[Elfie]

Actually there is a history of it if I recall correctly.

Links?

[Suave]

Actually Georgia as it is now is a soviet construct.

Of course russia stands to profit from it. That's why they're neck deep in it. And that's why the US has it's hands in it. That doesn't change the fact that ossetians want to BE ossetians IN ossetia. Just like the slovaks in slovakia and the slovenians in slovenia. And why shouldn't they? It's not like northern ireland or even kosovo, here you have a 90% majority of an ethnically, culturally homogenous region that just want's it's independence and reunification. Just like the other former states have gotten. But this time it just happens to benefit russia and not nato. And?

The peace keeping force has been in ossetia for over a decade. What do you think would happen to the ossetians if the russians pulled out? Georgia want's russia out of the way so it can get back to the georgification of ossetia, hard to do without altering the demographics of ossetia to put it clinically. I think you need to look at this more objectively. If russia was aiming to occupy georgia proper then that would be a whole different story, but right now they're just declawing her.
 

[Suave]

Thanks for the link Hangtime.

South Ossetia covers 3.900 square km and in 1989 had 99.000 inhabitants, 66 percent Ossets and 29 percent Georgians. Rural population among Ossets: 34 per cent (1989).

Revolutionary activity had began in South Ossetia as early as 1903. S. Kirov directed Bolshevik activities in the region from 1909, and shortly after the outbreak of the February Revolution a soviet was formed at Vladikavkaz.

The South Ossetia became a part of the Georgian Menshevik Republic with the break up of the Russian empire in 1918, while the North formed a part of the Terek Soviet Republic.

Fierce fighting took place in The North Caucasus during the ensuing civil war (1918-21) and in January , 1919 white forces of General Denikin occupied North Ossetia . In late March, 1920, however, Vladikavkaz fell to the Red Army , and on November 17, 1920 northern Ossetia was included in the newly formed Mountain ASSR as the Ossetian Okrug . On July 7, 1924 Osetia was reorganized as the North Ossetian Autonomous Oblast and on December 5, 1936, as the North Ossetian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. The south Ossetian Oblast was organized within the Georgian republic on April 20,1922.

In 1936, North Ossetia was upgraded to Autonomous Republic, which in fact had no meaning during Stalin's dictatorship. The Ossetians were loyal to the Soviet Union during World War II, when the Germans pressed to reach the oil fields of Baku and Grozny. After the war they were rewarded in that their republic was enlarged at the expense of the Chechen-Ingush ASSR and Stavropol krai. The Muslim Digor Ossets, however, were deported to Central Asia.

In 1989, in the freedom of glasnost and Perestroika and frightened by rising Georgian nationalism, the South Ossetians demanded unification with North Ossetia. In December the next year, the Georgian Parliament declared that South Ossetia was no longer autonomous and authorized suppression of newspapers and bans on demonstrations. One issue at stake was the language. Georgian was declared as official language. The Ossetians declared Osetian as the official language of South Ossetia. Fighting commenced in January 1991. During the fighting, South Ossetians were drained of a large part of their population. It is difficult to estimate the number of inhabitants in today's South Ossetia. Most Georgians who lived in the republic left for Georgia proper, and only a few small enclaves in South Ossetia are still inhabited by Georgians

More than 100.000 Ossets fled from Georgia and South Ossetia to North Ossetia. The fighting ended in July 1992 when a cease-fire, at the initiative of Russian President Yeltsin, was agreed and a peacekeeping force of Ossets, Georgians and Russians was set up. The agreement is being observed by the CSCE in Tiflis. But since then little progress has been made. South Ossetia is in a situation of permanent economic crisis and there is a lack of almost everything including jobs, clothes, food heating and electricity. Schools and universities are closed because of lack of heating and books. The situation is worsened by Georgia cutting electricity supplies, which has led to North Ossetia running an electric cable from Russia through the mountain range.

[Elfie]

The peace keepers being in South Ossetia for over 10 years do not change the fact that South Ossetia is still Georgian territory, and has been the entire time.

[Suave]

And slovakia was once czechoslavakian territory. I guess it's lucky thing for the slovakians that geography and the ussr stuck them with the czechs and not the georgians. They still would've been just as deserving to the right of self determination though. Doesn't mean they would've gotten to exercise it.
 

[Hangtime]

Thanks for the link Hangtime.

Yer Welcome.

<S!>

[MiloMorai]

Georgia want's russia out of the way so it can get back to the georgification of ossetia, hard to do without altering the demographics of ossetia to put it clinically.

Yet that is what the Russians did.

After the war they were rewarded in that their republic was enlarged at the expense of the Chechen-Ingush ASSR and Stavropol krai. The Muslim Digor Ossets, however, were deported to Central Asia.