Author Topic: Buffs Too Tuff?  (Read 245 times)

Offline Toad

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« on: May 24, 2001, 09:56:00 AM »
Recently read a discussion on the never-ending "buffs too tuff" topic.

Just got this tidbit in my monthly CAF Wing newsletter. The editor always prints a WW2 historical note on the last page.

Yes, it's anecdotal. Makes a great read though. Enjoy.

"Sgt. Maynard Smith was trained as an aerial gunner, and drew an assignment as a waist gunner on a B-17.  On May 1, 1943, Sgt. Smith flew his first combat mission over Europe. It turned out to be a mission he would never forget. After releasing its bombs over the target, the B-17 pointed its nose toward home. On the way home all hell broke loose. The Bomber flew into an area of intense, accurate flak and several aggressive enemy fighters.

The Fortress was the recipient of a horrendous beating of fire from enemy antiaircraft guns and fighters. Cannon shells ripped through the thin skin of the Fortress. The oxygen system was shot out and several valuable flight control cables were severed. Fires ignited in both the radio compartment and the waist gunners' section. Two crewman were seriously wounded, and three others bailed out over the water.

In the meantime, the B-17 was still under ferocious attack by enemy fighters. Sgt. Smith would fire his guns at the fighters, then rush to the buring areas of the aircraft to try to extinguish the flames. In between time, he would rush to the tail to administer medical aid to the wounded tail gunner.

All of his efforts seemed to be a losing deal. The excaping oxyen from the damaged system fanned the fire on board. The heat became so intense that the radio, gun mounts and cameras melted. Ammunition on the bomber began to explode. Smith fought the fires until every fire extinguisher on the bomber was empty. For what seemed like an enternity, Smith continued to perform these multiple tasks. He continued to fire all of the workable guns on board until the enemy aircraft, running low on fuel and certain that the B-17 would not survive, streaked toward their home base. With the enemy fighters gone, Smith had more time to attend the tail gunner. He wrapped himself in a protective cloth and batted out the fires with his hands.

The bomber, three bodies short, made it back safely and landed.

Sgt. Maynard H. Smith was presented the Medal of Honor."


"SMITH, MAYNARD H. (Air Mission) (MI)

Rank and organization. Sergeant, U.S. Army Air Corps, 423d Bombardment Squadron, 306th Bomber Group.

Place and date: Over Europe, 1 May 1943.

Entered service at: Cairo, Mich. Born: 1911, Cairo Mich.
G.O. No.: 38,12 July 1943.

Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action above and beyond the call of duty. The aircraft of which Sgt. Smith was a gunner was subjected to intense enemy antiaircraft fire and determined fighter airplane attacks while returning from a mission over enemy-occupied continental Europe on 1 May 1943. The airplane was hit several times by antiaircraft fire and cannon shells of the fighter airplanes, 2 of the crew were seriously wounded, the aircraft's oxygen system shot out, and several vital control cables severed when intense fires were ignited simultaneously in the radio compartment and waist sections. The situation became so acute that 3 of the crew bailed out into the comparative safety of the sea. Sgt. Smith, then on his first combat mission, elected to fight the fire by himself, administered first aid to the wounded tail gunner, manned the waist guns, and fought the intense flames alternately. The escaping oxygen fanned the fire to such intense heat that the ammunition in the radio compartment began to explode, the radio, gun mount, and camera were melted, and the compartment completely gutted. Sgt. Smith threw the exploding ammunition overboard, fought the fire until all the firefighting aids were exhausted, manned the workable guns until the enemy fighters were driven away, further administered first aid to his wounded comrade, and then by wrapping himself in protecting cloth, completely extinguished the fire by hand. This soldier's gallantry in action, undaunted bravery, and loyalty to his aircraft and fellow crewmembers, without regard for his own personal safety, is an inspiration to the U.S. Armed Forces."

Picture: http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent/1,12044,ML_snuffy_bkp,00.html

They were "Men of Men". I salute them.



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 05-24-2001).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Nexus

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2001, 10:12:00 AM »
Yep B-17s were tough.

I've seen film footage of B-17's landing missing their entire rudder, half of their vertical stabilizer and 1 foot holes in their wings and fuselage.

Pretty amazing.

Nexus

Offline ispar

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2001, 06:42:00 PM »
S! If ever a man deserved it... incredible. Simply incredible.

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Offline Tac

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2001, 07:01:00 PM »
Yep they were very tough.

But I bet THOSE b17's did NOT bag fighter kills with a few easy pings.

Make the buffs eat LEAD  (like a lanc.. 2X a lanc) and tone down those nuketipped buffguns.

Offline kfsone

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2001, 07:35:00 PM »
No, the buffs are tough enough and the fighters are tough enough.

What isn't accurate are fighters, in daylight, pulling up behind a bomber at 200-300 feet instead of making strafing attacks in the interest of self-preservation, or fighters climbing up a buffs six on auto-climb with the intention of driving up to gun range.

It's the people who whine because they died before they had chance to turn autopilot off ... That make you wonder

Offline kfsone

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2001, 07:36:00 PM »
Oh - and there's a fairly famous story of a B17 that was rammed by an enemy fighter in a last-ditch desperate attack. The fighter tumbled away to earth and the B17 had a huge chunk torn out of it's main fueselage, but it returned home.

Offline kfsone

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2001, 07:51:00 PM »
Really, on the toughness issue, it has to be said: A lot of fighters went down, and a lot of bombers went down. There are *amazing* stories of shot up birds returning home. But I think this little story shows that there is a very tiny difference between the lucky ones that returned and the only-slightly-less-lucky ones that maybe didn't.


 'I was on the first night raid on Berlin done by Mosquitoes. Bomber Command decided to send 12 Mosquitoes to Berlin in the moonlight, because heavy bombers could not operate at that stage in full moonlight because of fighter interception. It was a raid to coincide with Hitler's birthday. The coincidence of the two was more than Bomber Command could resist, so to satisfy their whim we were sent off.

 'It was a wonderfully clear moonlit night, so clear that we map-read all the way to Berlin. When we got to blacked-out Berlin you could see this heavy dense black mass coming up in front of you with the moonlight glinting on the lakes at Potsdam. This was a high-level night raid. We looked upon it as a rather boring distraction from our normal operations and hardly took it 100 per cent seriously. But when I was running up on the target over Berlin in the center of the city, suddenly I felt a loud, violent bump behind the aircraft. I recognised this from our medium-level Blenheim days as heavy flak bursting very close. The only reaction that went through my mind was "Bloody cheek! Hitting a Mosquito with flak at 18,000 feet in the middle of the night!"

 'I was irritated, but did not think anything of it until the next day when the Flight Sergeant invited me to look at my Mosquito. There at the rear end of the fuselage, just before the tailplane, there was a hole right through the fuselage where a piece of shrapnel had gone through from the burst of flak. It cut all the control wires except one and I'd flown home with one wire connecting me to the elevators. The aeroplane flew perfectly normally.'

 -- Charles Patterson, Bomber Command pilot

Offline SpitLead

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2001, 01:44:00 PM »
Tac, ya just gotta know how to attack them and be patient (I can't stress that enough).

Seems everyone wants to run up the 6 0'clock because they want to get the kill in a hurry. Use slashing attacks from above and from the sides at either the 4 and 8 o'clock positions or from the 10 or 2 o'clock positions.  Most times they're lucky to get a single side gun on you (if they even man those guns which I find most don't) and the angle makes it difficult to get a steady bead on you.  If you do attack from the 7-6-5 o'clock positions hoping they're asleep and they start firing break hard immediately to throw off their aim.  I usually drop low to get outta tail gun firing arc.

This tour I have a 5-1 kill ratio of buffs.  You can win if you use the right tactics.

Offline SageFIN

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2001, 06:48:00 PM »
Well, the 6 o'clock attack is historical and the Luftwaffe Sturmbock squads practicing this tactic didn't even suffer any especially heavy losses (well, at least not because of the bomber guns)  .

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Offline Tac

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2001, 07:53:00 PM »
Spitlead, for the 1000th time, if the gunner is seeing you, your chances of living are very small no matter WHAT angle you come from (except from straight below vs b26 and lanc).

It only takes 1 snapshot ping at long range to tear your plane open. the guns HAVE been powered up to increase survival of buffs, which is to my opinion, the wrong approach. Id rather have to put a lot of lead into one than have the buff ping me at d1.4 with ease. Want a good trial? get a friend to fly b17 at 30k. go attack that b17. if the buff gunner is tracking you, you will have a hell of a time shooting that buff down unless you do a banzai charge on it or your friend has his noodle stuck to the 50 cal guns with frostbite and can't aim from the pain.  

heck, id LOVE my fighter's .50's to be able to HIT like a buff gun. They dont. thats the story.

Offline GunnerCAF

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Buffs Too Tuff?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2001, 08:39:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
"SMITH, MAYNARD H. (Air Mission) (MI)

I think I saw this on the History Channel. They called him Snuffy Smith.  The guy was a true hero, but he frequently got himself in trouble.  On the day he was to recieve his medal, he could not be found.  He was put on KP duty and was found pealing potatoes (do I qualify for VP?) and they had to quick get him dressed up for the presentation and pictures  

Gunner <CAF>
GunrCAF

[This message has been edited by GunnerCAF (edited 05-25-2001).]
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