Vertical Manouvers- Keeping things in the Vertical

[iTunes]

Hi guys
Been flying for a while now and I like to fly the 109s, I often read about the above and I'm trying to work what exactly  what you should be doing with a 109 in the Vertical, does it mean down and up again? There's things like spiral climbs, Vertical scissors etc and I (like most people probably) need something visual so I can understand it better.
Can anyone point me to a site or post some screenies so I can work what I should be doing?
I have the basic flight skills together now and i want to move the bar a bit higher to increase my gaming experience.
Any help would be gratefully received!
Thanks and a big <S>!

[TequilaChaser]

Hello iTunes,

one of our Retired Trainers ( Drano ) was at one time one of the "109 Freaks" ( joking ) he always taught, when flying/fighting in the
109 planes, to use its raw power/ to "FIGHT UP" meaning as you are cruising around , and spot / engage an opponent..you should take the fight Vertical ( UP ) to use the climbing abilitythe 109's are good at, and use ROPE type maneuvers  etc.to force your opponent to try and follow and stall out...

short & basic answer here....

Agent360, Widewing, Murdr, ( the AHTC guys ), as well as alot of the Muppets ( they mainly fly the 109s alo )......will be here soon to enlighten you in more detail of what you should practice.........

just remember, when you use "the FIGHT UP" mental picture....you are always restoreing/reserving your potential E  in the Altitude sense..

[abc123]

While 109s do good in the vert, don't be afraid to mix it up a little (at least in earlier models) more and get below your opponent some of the times (rolling scissors, nose low reversals, split s to set up a vertical reverse, low yo-yo's, etc etc) rather then just spiral climb up until they stall, or always just try to be above them while taking them up.

Doing this will make you a much better overall 109 pilot.  Also try to work on your torque and snap rolls, as they will aid you a lot when you're reversing back to a opponent from say the top of a 'vertical' maneuver.  Work on being in control during the whole maneuver, and be able to exit at will without stalling.

 

[Agent360]

This is a long post as most of mine are. But if you want to learn you must read.

I will try to paint a word picture of what keeping it verticle means.

Scenario 1:

You have engaged a spit form slightly above and give chase. Spit banks and weaves some. You close. He breaks into a hard turn attempting to get an overshoot

so he can then reverse his turn back to you for a shot. If you break hard with him attempting to get a high G shot this is exactly what will happen.

Or you could chop throttle and do a low yo-yo for a chance at a snap shot however if you miss he will still be able to reverse on you and get on top.

The correct thing to do.
When the spit breaks hard you follow in the turn hard ONLY TO THE POINT where you cannot pull any lead.

As long as you are inside his turn (pulling lead) you are good.  When the target begins to move out of your site it is time to go vertical. Roll flat - wep on - and pull strait up into a tight loop.

Alter the angle of the loop as needed to keep vis. You are now coming over the top....one notch of flaps....bring the nose over and down immediately roll level.

You will see the spit coming out of the flat turn attempting to get guns for a HO shot or catch you under the belly. Nose down and avoid the gun solution by

rolling a little...stay flat and fly over him pulling up into a hard oblique turn popping all your flaps this time ( chop throttle to get below 200 so you CAN get your flaps out).

Bring the nose down again onto him. If he is still trying to climb to you he will be at stall and you will still have plenty of energy to do whatever you want. Most of the time the spit will have to turn down or split S. You will be on top with flaps out.

Cut throttle enough to keepfrom over speeding. Now you should be in a position for guns. Give chase and close for guns. The spit will probably break turn again.

At this point if you have energy and you should pull in flaps and do a HIGH short yo-yo. This keeps your speed but still gives you angles for a shot.

Whatever happens next do not get nose down too much or you will not be able to come up to verticle before the spit can make the flat turn around to you.

The goal here is not to play BZ. The goal is to stay close but on top and out of guns. IF you just zoom up until stall every time you will be 1 or more K above and the spit will just stay low break turning. It�s a stalemate at this point. You must keep the pressure on and stay OFFENSIVE. Going BZ is just making both of you offensive. You want him defensive and you offensive.

Scenario 2:

You have made a kill. You are low and slow. Say less than 1000 feet and at about 200 mph. A spit now dives on you. OHHHHH #$%@....

You will now �allow� the spit to close to 800. Baiting him into your six while you nose down (not dive) and wep on to get as much speed as possible in a slow RIGHT turn.

Take the shallow dive all the way to the deck in a constant turn. He is most likely faster than you and will keep his speed for a nice hard turn into a gun solution.

While looking back and the spit gets to 800 tighten the turn...cut throttle...right rudder and slip around.

As he begins to fall under your tail or goes to pure pursuit for the shot you will roll left holding the right rudder and keeping the pull up on the stick from the turn. The plane will get squirrelly here.

You have the right rudder loaded so you can ease off some to control the wing stall when you roll left. You will now be pointing up.

EASE (if you jam it you will snap roll) the throttle to full..wep on and go strait up. Try to keep vis. At this point you MIGHT have a shot if you stall turn to the right ( pull BACK RIGHT) and flip the plane over. PUSH forward and use rudder to maintain control.

The spit probably has more E and can go up. IF so you will take it down to the deck again. But the good news is he is not as fast now. YOU have made him burn some E by going up. Take it down with wep on gaining your E back. Watch him. Wait until he makes the turn at the TOP. Now you are fast and he is slow.

You now pull up and into him. Avoid the HO by rolling slightly. IF you have a shot take it. KEEP GOING UP and nose down some..keep your speed at 200 or so, more if you can. Take it up until you start to stall. Gently roll around...rudder flaps and bring it down again. You should have some kind of shot here.

Once you gain angles and get at least level in alt with the spit keep your nose UP!!!!! and make every turn up and over. IF you are watching him you should be looking at some angles here for a shot.


You can not "out zoom" a spit or most other planes for that matter. So you must get to equal E some how. Once you have that it is a matter of time before you get a gun solution. IF you continue to make the spit climb and turn to the RIGHT against his tork it won't take long to run him down.

If you are not close and engage with high speeds keep your turns going at 2000 feet of climb on every turn. Working your way closer and closer. Do not get baited into chasing him strait down. He will just pull around onto your six because you need wayyyy more radius to get your nose up than him.

Scenario 3: The knife fight....my favorite.

You have the spit in guns but he is stirring or gets a good break turn on you and you are both slow (under 200 mph). Pull the nose up hard..wep on..control the stall with rudder as needed.

Go strait up...I mean strait vertical and hold it as long as you can...wing stall by pulling back left or right....rudder around and cut throttle to zero....control...control.... flaps and rudder. Bring it down on him like a ton of bricks...be aggressive...scare the crap out of

him...flaps out...go for guns.....pull up again...take it up man...up. up.

If you see him start to stall at all in the vert you have him. Attempt to stay on top.

IF you need to extend just a little for speed and come back hard...make him THINK there is a gun solution....stay on top BUT CLOSE. Make a lead turn into him every time and turn UP.

If you keep going up every time and  faking a guns solution he will keep turning which is just what you want. The beauty of this is the spit just loves to turn....he just wants to turn hard every time and kill you. HEHEHEHEHEH. You must stay close but out of guns. If you give him any opportunity to extend and get speed your going to get reversed.

If you mess it up and overshoot allowing him to turn onto your six dive and get as much speed as possible...pull up into 2000 feet of climb and keep going...drag him....you can gain speed. You can gain speed even at 3500 feet of climb where the spit cannot. He can climb at that but he can�t gain speed like you.

Drag him up. Make it 3000 feet then 4000 feet of climb. When you get about 1k away go into a nice easy climbing turn to the RIGHT.... always to the right....go into a flat turn...nose down to him and make a fake attempt to get guns...it will make him lead turn...when this happens go flat and go up again...nice short hi yo-yo....stay close and work him around in a climbing turn until you can take it down onto him for a nice side or front qtr shot.

Continue to work him in the vertical. DO NOT let him bait you with an early turn in front for what looks like an easy shot and take you down at high speed.

He will just chop his throttle pull up and around right onto you.

Now with all that said anyone can stay fast and on top and make high-speed gun passes. This IS NOT what I am describing. The goal is to stay CLOSE.

It is a cat and  mouse game. But you want to be the MOUSE not the CAT. The mouse takes the cat out into the road where a MAC truck (your taters) run him over. That sounds backwards but that is exactly how it works.

Good luck.

Agent360

[Cajunn]

WOW!
I need to quit, I don't think I have the time or smarts to figure all that out while some guys shooting at me, no wonder I suck at Fighters. 

[Void56]

wow the being the mouse thing is great and especially the fakeing the guns so he turns more and more to lose his e....all in all well said agent (love to have you teach me something with the 109 sometime btw ) till then 

[iTunes]

Wow... Looks like I have some work to do, It's Interesting about the 2k climb, I was always going left at about 4k, I'll grab a squaddie and get some practice in on these manouvers, thanks for the replies guys!

[BaldEagl]

Not to take away anything that's been said but any manouver with a vertical component, either up or down (i.e. yo-yo's, spiral climbs, defensive spirals, etc.) qualify as "keeping things in the vertical".  That said, in practicality, when most people discuss this it's keeping things in the vertical going up, where certain planes outperform others.

The vertical portions of the fight may be limited by zoom climbing ability (as with the F4U's, Jugs, 190's, etc.), or may be continuous based on raw horsepower to weight ratios (as with the 109's, P-38's, Spits, etc.).  The manouvers available to you will be dictated by this, by your E state and by your enemy's E state. 

It does you little good to go vertical if your enemy can still close on you until you stall at the top.  Often, oblique turns as a vertical component are as valuable, if not more so than a pure vertical manouver.

The point I'm trying to make is that, while with certain planes keeping the fight in the vertical may be generally good advice, it's still entirely situation dependent.  There are so many variables in any engagement that specific manouvers may have no relevence.

I'd suggest learning and practicing vertical manouvers, keeping them in your bag of tools and pulling them out as you see an opportunity to use them.  It's more a matter of learning acm and what's valuable at what times in what situations.

[iTunes]

I have extensive experience in the whole Jug range and the spits 5 and 9, but the 109 set is a different kettle of fish altogether, I've been doing some offline work and Oi have found myself doing a heck of a lot more control inputs, I fully expect to get shot down on a regular basis until these manouvers become Instinct, but that's fine, just makes getting a kill all the more worthwhile.

[goober69]

wow the being the mouse thing is great and especially the fakeing the guns so he turns more and more to lose his e....all in all well said agent (love to have you teach me something with the 109 sometime btw ) till then 

yea i fly spits a lot and ocasianaly against agent, i have learned that turning hard is not all a spit can do, the 16 and maybe 8 can play the engergy game quite well too. though i dont think i can hang with him in a k4 if he pure energy fights me.

its true that everything agent said is valid in the situations he described, you will have to learn to read your oponent as he did  i.e. their engergy state, what they are thinking, what theyre gonna do next, how bad do they want my blood? can i sucker him into a clean quick overshoot or do i gota get dirty?

youll love 109's though if they are well flown they can be just as hard if not harder to kill than the most manuverable plane in the set. well thats just about any plane but they do have certin advantages you can exploit against most planes.

in fact the only plane i can think of that can maybe match a k4 in a pure climbing fight provided equal e is the masively over perked spit 14( and at high alt above 15k i think)  but then it only turns good to the right and its not spit like at all. as far as manuverability

[mbailey]

wow the being the mouse thing is great and especially the fakeing the guns so he turns more and more to lose his e....all in all well said agent (love to have you teach me something with the 109 sometime btw ) till then 

I agree with Void, if u ever have any extra time i would love to go to the TA with u agent.  Ive been flying the 109F all tour and absolutly love it, now i need to get good with it.  Thanks for the write up