Author Topic: video evaluation/ rolling scisor in pj  (Read 514 times)

Offline goober69

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video evaluation/ rolling scisor in pj
« on: August 16, 2008, 01:30:43 PM »
ok here is a flim im posting for comment, i basicaly wanna know what i did right, this is a fight i had in the da with bosco123.

      ok so at the merge we are co alt, but im maybe 20mph faster as i was wep'ed  up. we go into the verticle and after the first over the top i know im clearly at an e advantage, on the second vert i top out higher and faster than he does.  that is where i make my first mistake, i give up on my position for a quick low percentage shot that makes me overshoot beneath him, i pull back up and over giving him a breif shot that he luckily misses, from this point it progreses to a rolling scisor for about 3-4 rotations with me trying to manage my E by cuting throttle on the first 25 degrees of the downward part, think i also had maybe 1-2 notches of flaps out throughout the rolls. i am also trying to keep my lift vector behind him to push him further out in front.   at some point the scisor turns into a looping fight,  i dont know exactly why/ either thats the natural progression of me gaining positon or he made some mistake like not rolling enough at the top. id like explanation on that.

also from looking at this fight you can see that during the scisors portion of the fight we are within 1k of each other sometimes as close as 400, and that our altitude varies between 8.6k at the top and 7.6k at the bottom, basicaly we maintain that altitude throughout the fight and at the end im close to 7k

so basiacly from that point its a looping fight with me slowly gaining angle on him, i am cutting ahead of his turns by rolling over and turning down sooner. i am still choping throttle on the downward parts slightly i think and it helps my turn rate some. it goes on till the point where he does this wierd looking flat stall where his inner wing snaped him over and he lost about 40mph i gain his six easily and follow through for the kill shot.

looking at this fight from the side one can see it looks like a perfect double helix. i thought it was really fun as my palms were sweating, and i got that feeling of euphoria as soon as i saw him stall out.

tips on what i could do better/evaluations are appreciated.

here is the liink :   http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8b8fddf744d831ced2db6fb9a8902bda


thanks to bosco for the good fights. <S>
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 01:45:21 PM by goober69 »
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline goober69

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Re: video evaluation/ rolling scisor in pj
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2008, 07:08:04 PM »
youll have to copy the link it works but for some reason it didnt embed as a link, guess i made a stupid html mistake. and it wont let me modify anymore.
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline WMLute

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Offline goober69

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Re: video evaluation/ rolling scisor in pj
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 01:03:47 AM »
ah thanks lute preciate it.
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline Mace2004

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Re: video evaluation/ rolling scisor in pj
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2008, 11:27:56 AM »
Very nice fight...a classic rolling scissors which the 38 does very well at.  I really enjoyed watching and analyzing the film, you both did very well.  Here are my observations:

You only have about 10mph on him at the merge but it looks like he pulls harder going up and gains some angles on you. 

At the top of the first immelman, he actually has a position advantage on you (he's behind your wingline).  I'm not sure why he rolled away from you at the top.  If he had rolled into you I think he could have had a belly shot or at least been able to follow and jam you at the top forcing you down with him behind before you could complete a second Immelman.

Your first crossing shot definently cost you as you already know but it was a reasonable opportunity.

The rolling scissors was classic; however, it doesn't look like either or you were very consistent in keeping your lift vector behind the other but the few times you did it made a difference in position advantage.  I get the impression that Bosco tended to relaxe a bit in the vertical, probably trying to conserve E but that also let you gain.  By time 2+30 you've clearly gained angles on him and have several turns with your lift vector behind him and you eat him up.  He's feeling the pressure so he tries to redefine the fight with a pure loop but it doesn't last and you go right back into the rolling scissors. 

You are carrying, on average 10 to 20mph more than he is through most of the fight.  This is translating into better turn rate across the bottom because you're closer to corner velocity than he is.  It appears it also gives you a bit more control over the top.  Also, even if you fly an identical flight path, your extra speed lets you close the distance on him.

I see hardly any mistakes throughout the fight, just instances of slight differences in technique that have given you the edge which allowed you to slowly but surely gain on him.  I'm not exactly sure what Bosco is doing at time 3+28. It could have been a moment of indecision or, judging from the yaw rate, too much rudder resulting in a slight departure but immediately after he attempts to force an overshoot and reverse.  Unfortunently for him, you don't have enough speed to carry you through an overshoot and he ends up reversing directly in front of you putting you squarely in the control zone.  It probably would have been better had he ruddered over hard right to try to jam you and force you into a mistake but it's hard to say.   He went from feeling pressured to becoming fully defensive with that move but you can't fault the decision to try something different.  This can be one of the toughest decisions to make in a knife fight...when to stop doing what's not working and try something else.

Overall, a great fight by both.  It's obviously you guys are very closely matched and it was only slight differences in technique and a couple of bad shot opportunities that made the difference.

As far as what you could have done better I'd say the biggest thing is that you really didn't keep your lift vector behind him enough. Most of the time your vector was right on him but you can clearly see times in the fight when you had your vector behind and it helped you out.  Perhaps the fight would have ended sooner if you had been a little more consistent here.  This is not just a technique to use in a rolling scissors but in all ACM.  Picture a 45 deg cone extending out your opponent's six with the point at his tail.  The part of the cone from about 200yds to 800yds is the control zone and where you want to work yourself.  Once you're in the control zone use high and low yo-yo's to maintain an e advantage and react to his break turns.  It's almost impossible to shake someone in the control zone unless he has way too much closure or doesn't know how to yo-yo. Most people just pull directly at their opponent so you end up with a series of close passes, especially if their goal is to take any snapshot opportunity they can create.  While it may result in a shorter fight if successful, or be necessary because you're defensive, if not successful you're not really advancing your cause.

v/r Mace
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 11:29:58 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline goober69

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Re: video evaluation/ rolling scisor in pj
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2008, 12:12:06 PM »
Very nice fight...a classic rolling scissors which the 38 does very well at.  I really enjoyed watching and analyzing the film, you both did very well.  Here are my observations:

You only have about 10mph on him at the merge but it looks like he pulls harder going up and gains some angles on you. 

At the top of the first immelman, he actually has a position advantage on you (he's behind your wingline).  I'm not sure why he rolled away from you at the top.  If he had rolled into you I think he could have had a belly shot or at least been able to follow and jam you at the top forcing you down with him behind before you could complete a second Immelman.

Your first crossing shot definently cost you as you already know but it was a reasonable opportunity.

The rolling scissors was classic; however, it doesn't look like either or you were very consistent in keeping your lift vector behind the other but the few times you did it made a difference in position advantage.  I get the impression that Bosco tended to relaxe a bit in the vertical, probably trying to conserve E but that also let you gain.  By time 2+30 you've clearly gained angles on him and have several turns with your lift vector behind him and you eat him up.  He's feeling the pressure so he tries to redefine the fight with a pure loop but it doesn't last and you go right back into the rolling scissors. 

You are carrying, on average 10 to 20mph more than he is through most of the fight.  This is translating into better turn rate across the bottom because you're closer to corner velocity than he is.  It appears it also gives you a bit more control over the top.  Also, even if you fly an identical flight path, your extra speed lets you close the distance on him.

I see hardly any mistakes throughout the fight, just instances of slight differences in technique that have given you the edge which allowed you to slowly but surely gain on him.  I'm not exactly sure what Bosco is doing at time 3+28. It could have been a moment of indecision or, judging from the yaw rate, too much rudder resulting in a slight departure but immediately after he attempts to force an overshoot and reverse.  Unfortunently for him, you don't have enough speed to carry you through an overshoot and he ends up reversing directly in front of you putting you squarely in the control zone.  It probably would have been better had he ruddered over hard right to try to jam you and force you into a mistake but it's hard to say.   He went from feeling pressured to becoming fully defensive with that move but you can't fault the decision to try something different.  This can be one of the toughest decisions to make in a knife fight...when to stop doing what's not working and try something else.

Overall, a great fight by both.  It's obviously you guys are very closely matched and it was only slight differences in technique and a couple of bad shot opportunities that made the difference.

As far as what you could have done better I'd say the biggest thing is that you really didn't keep your lift vector behind him enough. Most of the time your vector was right on him but you can clearly see times in the fight when you had your vector behind and it helped you out.  Perhaps the fight would have ended sooner if you had been a little more consistent here.  This is not just a technique to use in a rolling scissors but in all ACM.  Picture a 45 deg cone extending out your opponent's six with the point at his tail.  The part of the cone from about 200yds to 800yds is the control zone and where you want to work yourself.  Once you're in the control zone use high and low yo-yo's to maintain an e advantage and react to his break turns.  It's almost impossible to shake someone in the control zone unless he has way too much closure or doesn't know how to yo-yo. Most people just pull directly at their opponent so you end up with a series of close passes, especially if their goal is to take any snapshot opportunity they can create.  While it may result in a shorter fight if successful, or be necessary because you're defensive, if not successful you're not really advancing your cause.

v/r Mace

thanks mace, i think we are both very well matched as far as pilot skill goes, ur right there,
he told me that when he stalled he had looked at the clock so i guess he took his atenton away from what he was doing.

 i was actualy quite surprised that i flew the 38 that well i was expecting to die on the first immleman, its a great bird, i just don't fly it as much as something like a spit9/9 /16.

i did get a good compliment though from one of the guys in the da he said i had come quite a long way since playing 8player for free :D
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 12:16:18 PM by goober69 »
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V