Author Topic: What counts?  (Read 4218 times)

Offline moot

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2008, 08:06:52 AM »
Heavyweight boxing and other 1:1 sports are boring too because they do it 1:1 rather than 10:10.  Everyone knows those boxers ought to know better and fight 10:10.  
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2008, 08:16:04 AM »
Sometimes the sky is white with puffy cumulous clouds.
Sometimes the sky is grey, as on a gloomy day.
Sometimes the sky is red, as at sunrise or sunset.
Sometimes the sky is black, as at night.
Sometimes the sky is green, as before a major storm.

Probably not your best analogy.
A red rose in the dark is still red.
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2008, 08:36:21 AM »
A red rose in the dark is still red.

Well, it isn't. Red rose appears red because it reflects light of certain wavelength. No light no color...

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2008, 08:44:26 AM »
Well, it isn't. Red rose appears red because it reflects light of certain wavelength. No light no color...
Red is "red under standard observing conditions."  To say that a red rose isn't really red because of what you know about physics is akin to saying "the table isn't really solid," even though this use of "not solid" doesn't mean the table is rotting, hollow, or that you couldn't stand on it.  Rather, that the table isn't really solid is meant to explain solidity.  In the same way, optics is meant to explain why the rose is red, not disprove it.
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2008, 09:08:03 AM »
Red is "red under standard observing conditions."

I could swear you've mentioned being dark... Probably my Alzheimer kicked in. Apologies...



To say that a red rose isn't really red because of what you know about physics is akin to...

Do you know any better use of science than to explain the natural phenomena?

Offline Dadsguns

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2008, 09:09:25 AM »
Heavyweight boxing and other 1:1 sports are boring too because they do it 1:1 rather than 10:10.  Everyone knows those boxers ought to know better and fight 10:10.  


10140 posts  :rolleyes:,, how many more till you upgrade from plutonium to Nuclear Member :eek:
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 09:11:32 AM by Dadsguns »


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Offline moot

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2008, 09:51:58 AM »
Your point?
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Offline Dastrdly

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2008, 10:06:58 AM »
myself.... i figure its what i fly & how i fly it.  could never compete for high score that takes very meaningless abilities such as vulching hording & ganging & in cases duel accounts.

ive become well known as a 110C-4b dweeb but i do it well  & usually smoke most 'ranked' players. rank/score is meaningless unless u can back it!

what means the most to me is that i fly with honor... fight hard & gain any respect that way.

Offline Yenny

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2008, 10:21:03 AM »
myself.... i figure its what i fly & how i fly it.  could never compete for high score that takes very meaningless abilities such as vulching hording & ganging & in cases duel accounts.

ive become well known as a 110C-4b dweeb but i do it well  & usually smoke most 'ranked' players. rank/score is meaningless unless u can back it!

what means the most to me is that i fly with honor... fight hard & gain any respect that way.

Until they found a way to kill ur dweeeb 110C!!
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2008, 11:44:36 AM »
I could swear you've mentioned being dark... Probably my Alzheimer kicked in. Apologies...
I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.
Red is "red under standard observing conditions" means that we don't say an object changes colors just because we turn off the lights, put it under black-light, or create some other non-standard circumstance.  Under non-standard circumstances, we say "it looks like it's this color, but really it's not."
If you don't accept this analysis, then the truth-value of a label like "Blue" on a pair of pants changes when you turn off the lights.  With the lights on it's true, with the lights off it's false.

Anyway, zazen's "the sky is blue" analogy was accurate for his purposes.

Do you know any better use of science than to explain the natural phenomena?
Of course not.  But we don't conflate the phenomenon to be explained with its explanation; that's a misuse of language.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2008, 12:06:37 PM »
AK AK....im A8Popycd, im sure you recount that ive dueld before, and im sure you know where I got the basis for my complaints about the DA....
See your up to the old tricks lol :D


LOL!  If anyone broke the terms of the duel it was you.  No HO on merge and the first thing you did on was HO on merge.  Then there was the whole entire comedy routine where you tried to change the terms of the duel.  The terms were 3k merge, no firing on first merge and I get first pick since you challenged me to the duel.  We also agreed on winner calls the plane.  Since I go to pick first, I picked P-38s and that's when you tried to change the terms of the duel, you tried to get some n00b to call the plane.  I refused and told you to follow the terms or I walk.  You also seem to forget that on our second fight, I allowed you to pick the plane because you refused to fight me if I was in a P-38 again.  So our 2nd fight we fought in Ki-84s, in which I made you stall out trying to pull hard G's to match my triple Immel.

So I guess you were right in your previous post, there was under-handedness but it was on your part, no one else's.  Have a nice day tool boy.



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Offline Murdr

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2008, 12:13:40 PM »
I like that distillation. I like to think of them differently because in your mind, when you are fighting they are quite different. I find having distinct terminology for them makes the fundamental principles involved easier to conceptualize.

Good for you if that helps you with the concept, but do not present it as the established convention.

Quote
Instead of Situational Awareness we could probably call it Strategic Awareness then when you refer to Tactical Awareness the differences are very clear.

The key difference here is that you are stating your personal organizational preferences (effectively making it up), while those disagreing with you are are pointing out established conventions.  

Quote
Tactical Awareness is the concentration of attention on factors specifically and exclusively relating to your aircraft and that of a single opponent you are intimately engaged with. Those factors are very finite, predictable, easily observable and identifiable making Tactical Awareness relatively easy to persistently maintain.

Again, tactical awareness involves assesment of all immediate threats.  Though I can site military instances where the scope is expanded to include the entire immediate battlefield.

Quote
Strategic Awareness is the perpetual concentration of attention on all factors in your visual vicinity for the purpose of threat assessment, anticipation of response and to provide the basis for strategic decision making such as wether or not to switch targets mid-engagement, disengage or reengage, etc. The myriad of potential factors involved in Strategic Awareness are for all practical purposes infinite, therefore much more difficult to persistently maintain. The information itself and the decisions that must be made on the basis of the interpretation of those factors are not generally applicable to a 1 vs 1 encounters.

The scope of strategic awareness goes beyond visual range.  Academically it is a needed leadership skill of knowing not only your own plan of action needs to be, but also what others need to be doing in order to achieve the group objective.  In practice in Aces High, beyond the obvious mission context, I'd argue that strategic awareness applies to interpreting radar, marker, and radio traffic info, comprehending its significance on the evolving situation, and integrating that information into ones decision making process.

Both should be factors in processing situational awareness.  Citing a staged scenario like a duel, and arguing that since less components are required, that we no longer call the process SA but something else is poppycock.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 01:17:25 PM by Murdr »

Offline Mace2004

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2008, 01:38:06 PM »
Wow.  Quite a thread, I'm not sure where to start.  You could write a book on this subject alone.  Let me say I don't think it really matters much how you define things except in a training environment where you're trying to convey certain information in a very specific way to generate an overall understanding.  That said, there are many, many different definitions in use even today although the military has tried to standardize.  Terminology can vary not just between the services but between squadrons or even sections.

In the Navy the black shoes call things that float "ships".  Naval Aviators call them "boats".  USAF call airplanes "ships".  Go figure.  What's the point?  The point is do you understand what's going on? not do you have a precise definition that everyone agrees on.

Mace's opinion is this:  All awareness occurs on a sliding scale starting from the "big picture" to small.  I don't care much if someone wants to call this SA or TA or Assessment as there are many ways and opinions about how to define this.  Generally, we (the Navy) described SA which as the sliding scale of awareness.  These other finesse points mean little in combat.  What does matter is can this type of knowledge be adequately convied to students?  The chart that someone posted looks to me to be a USAF training product as they tend to break everything down to detailed analytical processes and I'd bet it's followed by dozens of other slides explaining each of the individual parts.  In the Navy, at least while I was in, we might pop up that slide, apologize for the eyestrain and then talk about awareness in a more generalized common sense sort of way.  I guess you could say that rather than processes and flow charts we tended to use less formal "tribal knowledge" techniques.  Which way is better?  Don't know, don't care, both work.

The question isn't one of definitions, it's how do you keep track of everything?  The simple answer is you don't.  While fighter pilots and Naval Aviators are godlike, they are not omniscient.  The real question is how do you keep track of everything that is important?  What has to be understood is that you cannot simply boresight the immediate task unless that immediate task requires all of your focus.  This is best illustrated by the old canard "aviate, navigate, then communicate".  It's called prioritization and it's kinda stupid to run into a mountain while figuring out what to say on the radio (although it certainly happens).  You've got to focus first on the most important thing and that's to fly the airplane.  The best and most successful pilots are those that can manage their focus to maintain overall awareness of the situation while dealing with the alligator closest to the boat.  The guy who bugs west when his home base is east is an example of someone that has poor ability to know what's going on and plan ahead.  Same thing with the guy that goes vertical in the middle of a furball or gets in a 10 lap flat lufberry on the deck with a dozen enemy around.

True war story:  A flight of F18's were headed toward their target during Desert Storm.  The E-2 calls a bandit 30 miles.  The Hornets had already switched their systems into Air to Ground mode (most were former A7 pilots) so their radars were mapping the ground not searching the air although they were more than 40 miles from the target.  Nobody heard the initial calls although the E2 is clear as a bell on their HUD tapes.  The E2 makes several more calls in an increasingly urgent tone.  25 miles, 20 mils, 15 MILES, 10 MILES.  Finally, one of the Hornets gets out of his air-to-ground focus long enough to hear the 10 mile call, switches to air-to-air and promptly launches a Sidewinder (his short range weapon)....well outside of range, which misses of course.  Then he switches to Sparrow (his long range weapon) and fires pretty close to minimum range and manages to get the kill.  Although he got a medal for the kill the whole group was a classic case of lack of SA.

How about this question:  Who's the best fighter pilot?  The guy who always wins a 1v1 or the guy that successfully completes the mission and survives?  It's easy, it's the guy who knows how to get the mission done without dying (or causing other friendlies to die).  1v1 however is still taught and is still a very strong measure as to how good of a pilot he is.  1v1's are a blast.  There is nothing quite like going head to head with another guy but what does the result actually mean?  In a lot of ways, 1v1 training can create problems.  The first is ego.  It's man against man so there can be a lot of chest thumping, grunting, and counting coup.  You see this all the time in AH on ch200...."ugggha ggugga munnga boogga DA."  Since ego can become involved, it can lead to very stupid mistakes.  Also, a lot of guys that are great at 1v1's tend to do the same thing in combat...try to immediately turn a mission into an opportunity for a 1v1.  We sometimes call it "dropping anchor".  Rather than taking face shots (yes, the dreaded HO in RL) and forcing the bandits away from a strike package and then continuing your escort some guys will immediately yank on hard turns leaving the strike package to continue unescorted.  Bad juju.  Ego is such an issue that TOPGUN refuses to say Maverick did this and Joker did that, despite what the movie said.  Sorry to disappoint but there is also no "TOPGUN Trophy".  It's the F-14 did this and the A-4 did that and nobody got a trophy at the end.  As a mission commander or strike lead I'd take a guy that understood the mission over some 1v1 hotshot who didn't.  Why is it taught?  Obviously, you could end up in one but that's not what you want in RL because RL is a multi-threat environment.  The main reason is that it teaches you how to maneuver your plane to the absolute limits.

Alright that's all real world, how does it apply to AH?  It depends.  Do you want to fight in the most realistic fashion and replicate RL missions and threats?  Create missions, fly in sections and divisions, do fighter sweeps, escort bombers, allocate targets, take down ack, capture towns.  You want to just fight?  Then hunt someone down and get in a fight.  Fly an A20 as a fighter against a Zeke or knife fight with a 262.  The nice thing about AH is that you can do all of this.  Just have fun.

Just my opinion...Peace and Love!

<S>
Mace


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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2008, 03:16:11 PM »
I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.
Red is "red under standard observing conditions" means that we don't say an object changes colors just because we turn off the lights
put it under black-light, or create some other non-standard circumstance.  Under non-standard circumstances, we say "it looks like it's this color, but really it's not."

"When all candels be out, all cats be grey. All thyngs are then of one colour." Fast forward five centuries: when light is out, there's no color, anyway you look at it.


If you don't accept this analysis, then the truth-value of a label like "Blue" on a pair of pants changes when you turn off the lights.  With the lights on it's true, with the lights off it's false.

Correct


But we don't conflate the phenomenon to be explained with its explanation; that's a misuse of language.

How else do you explain if not with explanation?

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2008, 03:32:39 PM »
That's a nice historical quotation, but its age does not make it true.

No light means you cannot perceive color, true, but that has nothing to do with this argument.

Quote
If you don't accept this analysis, then the truth-value of a label like "Blue" on a pair of pants changes when you turn off the lights.  With the lights on it's true, with the lights off it's false.

Correct

You accept that result? :huh :huh  I'd like to see someone follow a similar line of argument in front of a judge.  "No your Honor, that policeman cannot identify me because the event in question happened at night.  He claims he saw a brown-haired man, but my hair is not brown after 9pm unless I am under a lamp."

I rest my case.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 03:35:38 PM by Anaxogoras »
gavagai
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