an Iron curtain has descended across the Continent

[Elfie]

F-22s haven't been working so well lately

I haven't read anything that says they aren't at least, meeting expectations.

[moot]

It would mainly be a change in the first part of the link that Furball put up...I think he would have omitted the admiration.

That's just what I was thinking as I read that first part of the speech, too. 

[Dowding]

Without the Wall Street Crash and the global economic depression that followed, the Treaty of Versailles was irrelevant. It wasn't until the German middle classes lost all their savings to hyper-inflation, that the Nazis gained considerable support. They were a marginal party up to that point.

The Crash and Versailles Treaty are mutually supporting causes in the rise of Hitler.

[john9001]

the global economic depression was caused by tariff trade wars that shut down international trade, the global economic depression caused the wall st crash, not the other way around.

[Dowding]

A moot point. My point about mutually supportive events is still valid, I think.

[john9001]

A moot point. My point about mutually supportive events is still valid, I think.

ok 

[FrodeMk3]

Without the Wall Street Crash and the global economic depression that followed, the Treaty of Versailles was irrelevant. It wasn't until the German middle classes lost all their savings to hyper-inflation, that the Nazis gained considerable support. They were a marginal party up to that point.

The Crash and Versailles Treaty are mutually supporting causes in the rise of Hitler.

Dowding, take a look at those links' I put up. They will explain how a lot of Germany's depression went. The ridiculously high reperations' payments demanded by the treaty, along with the loss of industrial revenue from the Saar and the Rhineland (remember, those went under allied occupation at the end of the war) devestated Germany's economy, which never even got a chance to recover from the effects' of the war itself.

[WilldCrd]

Why are those flights by the Russia air force even necessary? The flights do nothing to promote their own national security and in fact, are just a relic of the Cold War. Russia seems determined to restart the Cold War by this and other actions.

They do the flights for the same reason they did them during the cold war. To test response times, see what A/C we send up with what weapons loaded on them and for the "effect"
the "effect" being that they are letting us know they are there, they can still send a rather large reminder that they are there and basically snub there noses at us.
It's an old cold war tactic to keep us on our toes

F-22s haven't been working so well lately... I think the F-22 will only be employed on milkruns where there is no risk of losing them. To have invested in them at all was a big mistake IMHO.

source please? I have heard NOTHING to support this. As a matter of fact all the recent info I have read on the F-22 is that it is meeting or EXCEEDING performance requirements. All the tests I know of involving 1 F-22 vs. up to 5 F-15's the F-22 pwned em all. I have heard nothing on the contrary.
I agree its is too damn expensive tho but, we got em so might as well use em.
You might have the F-22 confused with some kinda recent issues with the older F-15's that have crashed.

[Hornet33]

Yeah the F-22 comment kinda had me stumped. I don't live that far from Langley AFB and go by there at least once a week and there are always F-22's flying around. For a plane having "issues" they sure are flying them allot.

[FrodeMk3]

The russian's don't just have bombers flying around the arctic circle; they were talking about basing them in Cuba, as well.

I guess Vladimir just wasn't okay with entering the mainstream world economy. He has to relive the days of glory and gulags.

[Elfie]

They do the flights for the same reason they did them during the cold war. To test response times, see what A/C we send up with what weapons loaded on them and for the "effect"
the "effect" being that they are letting us know they are there, they can still send a rather large reminder that they are there and basically snub there noses at us.
It's an old cold war tactic to keep us on our toes

See...thats kinda my whole point, the Cold War is over and unless Russia is trying to start Cold War 2 then these flights are ridiculous.

[Hornet33]

Not really, they have the right to fly around in international airspace just like everyone else. We just happen to follow them around when they do so. It doesn't become an issue untill they start "tickling" other countries air defense bounderies try to provoke a response. That happened all the time during the cold war, now they just tool around wasting fuel in 50 year old turbo prop patrol bombers.

The reality is the Russian Air Force would die a very quick death if it came to a fight against NATO. Their numbers are nothing where they were 15 years ago, and what advanced aircraft they do have, they don't have many of, and what's left are 30-50 year old designs. Compare that force to the F-22's, EF2000's, Rafales, Grippens, Mirage 2000's, that the NATO countries are fielding in large numbers now. Forget about it, Russia doesn't stand a chance in an air battle.

[Elfie]

It doesn't become an issue untill they start "tickling" other countries air defense bounderies try to provoke a response. That happened all the time during the cold war,

Apparently, that is exactly what is happening again.

When I was stationed in Alaska during the mid '80s Soviet flights right up to our borders happened every week, usually multiple times per week. F-15's would scramble out of King Salmon or Galena on intercepts all the time.

[1pLUs44]

I'm just curious but doens't the U.S. have defense missles that can 'shoot down' Russian missles? I forget what it's called, but I sure do hope it's in place. 

Not really, they have the right to fly around in international airspace just like everyone else. We just happen to follow them around when they do so. It doesn't become an issue untill they start "tickling" other countries air defense bounderies try to provoke a response. That happened all the time during the cold war, now they just tool around wasting fuel in 50 year old turbo prop patrol bombers.

The reality is the Russian Air Force would die a very quick death if it came to a fight against NATO. Their numbers are nothing where they were 15 years ago, and what advanced aircraft they do have, they don't have many of, and what's left are 30-50 year old designs. Compare that force to the F-22's, EF2000's, Rafales, Grippens, Mirage 2000's, that the NATO countries are fielding in large numbers now. Forget about it, Russia doesn't stand a chance in an air battle.

And the Air battle could be the deciding factor if we were to go to war. Killing all the planes and SAMs would be the first thing NATO and the US would do.

[Serenity]

source please? I have heard NOTHING to support this. As a matter of fact all the recent info I have read on the F-22 is that it is meeting or EXCEEDING performance requirements. All the tests I know of involving 1 F-22 vs. up to 5 F-15's the F-22 pwned em all. I have heard nothing on the contrary.
I agree its is too damn expensive tho but, we got em so might as well use em.
You might have the F-22 confused with some kinda recent issues with the older F-15's that have crashed.

Do you recall the entire squadron that had to turn back after trying to cross the Intl. Date Line? I know that was a while ago, but thats not going to be lived down. The F-22 pilot trapped in his cockpit?