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Author Topic: No BoB without He-111  (Read 10355 times)

Offline Krusty

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2008, 08:23:09 PM »
We're recreating history, not reliving it. Our last BOB'06 the Germans won, remember?

Overall we stick to the spirit of the real thing but we don't have to adhere to every stupid thing/blunder one side or the other did.
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Offline Delirium

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2008, 03:37:49 AM »
Quote from: Krusty on September 17, 2008, 08:23:09 PM
Overall we stick to the spirit of the real thing but we don't have to adhere to every stupid thing/blunder one side or the other did.

And an alt cap is a stupid thing, more so if the historical fights never happened up at that alt?

Krusty, I'm not asking for either side have to play as an pre-programmed robot, just a simple alt cap.

You're not recreating history with Spitfires, Hurricanes, and Emils at 40k, least compared to any of the books I've read.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 03:43:08 AM by Delirium »
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Offline Sloehand

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2008, 04:29:41 AM »
Funny thing, Krusty.  I'm actually depending on a  stupid thing/blunder or two from you in this scenario.   :D
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Offline Krusty

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2008, 09:10:43 AM »
delirium, I've read a number of pilot accounts as well and they regularly report barely getting to 25k in time to be bounced by 30k 109s, or even higher enemy planes.

I wasn't necessarily saying the alt cap was stupid. I think it'd BAD, not stupid. I was saying that we don't have to do the same things that historically LOST the real battle. Example: We don't have to limit the 109s to close escort only for the bombers. This severely limited the Luftwaffe capabilities and the range of the 109Es.


As far as my opinion on scenarios/etc: I don't think restrictions work in all cases. Rather, I think encouragement is needed. Instead of "restricting" the alt (which, unless you use a 125mph downdraft, is un-enforcable), "encourage" the players to fly lower than this. Either by clouds, reduced visibility, cross-winds above a certain alt (*not* downdrafts, mind you), or something.

Alt caps just don't work well IMO. I find it much MUCH more unrealistic to have everybody coalt and co-E hovering at 24.9k out of fear of a high speed downdraft than I find 35k fights unrealistic.

One only pushes the line. The other scribbles all over it and then erases the line of reality.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 09:14:19 AM by Krusty »
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Offline Roscoroo

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2008, 09:33:34 AM »
Blunder !!! We don't need no stinking Blunders  :rolleyes:

the LW will have to go attack Russia when we're done with them.
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Offline 4510

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2008, 07:19:32 PM »
Quote from: Anaxogoras on August 28, 2008, 11:34:38 AM
What's your evidence to back up this claim?  I'm a little incredulous when a 295mph bomber cruises at 180mph, but if you can cite a good source I'll believe it.  When I fly the Ju88, I can do more than 200mph when not at full power in level flight with a full bombload.

Actually, the A-4 had "long span wings," which implies longer than the A-1 which preceded it (same source as above).

Lastly, your complaint about bombers not flying at cruise speed in scenarios goes the same way for B-17s and B-24s.  Did you make the same complaint for DGS?  Just curious.

The Battle of Britain Historical Society lists the JU88 Specs at this following link.

http://www.battleofbritain.net/0016.html

While the table doesn't identify whether this is a JU88 A1 the wing span specs are very near the specs stated for the A1 in another source "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" by David Donald.  (web site says 59' 10 3/4" vs 60' 3")

Max Speed at 16K per the website is approx 286mph with approx 239mph cruise.

So apparently the aircraft could cruise significantly faster than 180mph.

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Offline Krusty

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2008, 12:47:49 AM »
The rule of diminishing returns suggests that there's a larger difference between "max cruise" and "full power" than 40mph...

 :noid  :noid  :noid
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2008, 04:20:22 AM »
been thinking about this and going back to RL BoB might provide the answer (at least for alts). AFAIK lw buffs came in anywhere between 7-18k depending on the alt of the cloud base over England, so a decent thick layer of cloud would cap the alt for buffs at whatever seems appropriate (fairly low to compensate for the speed?) combined with a hefty fuel restriction it might be possible to force 88s to a reasonable alt/speed.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2008, 09:18:19 AM »
Can't have hefty fuel restrictions on BOB map. It's very large scale. You have the same fuel burn for fighters as well.

If I recall, though, in Frame 4 when I flew with the bombers in BOB'06 a noticable number of bombers were running out of fuel and gliding home, but this was from a pretty far bomber base, and maybe fuel leaks from .303 guns helped.
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Offline 715

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2008, 10:30:43 PM »
Quote from: Krusty on September 17, 2008, 08:23:09 PM
We're recreating history, not reliving it. Our last BOB'06 the Germans won, remember?

There have been 3 previous BoBs right?  Who won the other two?  (Obviously I suspect the Germans won all three big time, given the Ju88 and Bf110 performance in AH, but I'm just asking.)

A cloud layer sounds like a good idea.
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Offline Roscoroo

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2008, 11:46:59 PM »
 The Few prevailed in 2004, the LW managed to bomb the 11th group into the underground in 2006.
previous runnings were in the Cap /tour of duty days ,and on back in our other games.

Fuel burn is set historical to the time the 109's had over England befor having to rtb. (1.24)

there will be a few rule changes yet as for we now have tools / settings that work correctly .... We have ways to keep the riffraff out .. ;)
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Offline Brooke

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2008, 02:47:07 AM »
Yep, 2004 the RAF won, but it was very, very close.  As I recall, it came down to just a few buildings one way or the other.

One other thing to keep in mind here:  there is wind.  Level bombing with wind must very much be taken into account properly in strategy and tactics.
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Offline BlauK

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2008, 03:01:10 AM »
IIRC, 2006 was the first LW victory. The other 2 went to RAF.
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Offline Mitchell

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2008, 06:59:34 PM »
How about we just tell the JU-88 pilots to stay at or below the BOB ju-88 speed and hope they have the honesty to do it.

There will always be "those guys" but I have faith that the LW leaders could keep most at correct speed.

Worst case scenario is they go full speed anyway, so there is nothing to lose.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: No BoB without He-111
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2008, 05:39:22 PM »
No need, because the speeds that the Ju-88 are capable of in-game are the same as those that the Ju-88 was capable of in real life.
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