Lose buff external view

[minus]

hmmm i realy wonder why this   hard defense for  B 17 and  lancaster

 why nobady ask for  super lasers on ju88 ???

 other thing BUFF = Bomber  it  main role is drop the bombs   no les no more

 if  it have defense guns  they are to use  awoid defensles dead

 not to bust up enemy fighter forces

gameplay : u say  gameplay   well b 17 got nice balanced gameplay  lancaster  have 2 laser beams  i em sure that \
Pyro gived   15 % mor euber 7.7  calibers for ju88 like they was realy but it not balance anithing/

any 1 know i fly lotsa the Ju88  for real buff run

when i take B 17 i go more like lees for dweb ackstaring !!

 when i em in lancaster i go level the half world

 in arado is it a pure tactical buff run

 so all my respect for arado and ju88 drivers

and any b 17 who fly  around 18 k in formation the others are just ...............

 and  call me whiner and whine about my whine  

[Tac]

ET, please remember that statistics dont say squat about a plane.

Fighters kill a lot of buffs in the stats, but remember that it is very likely that more than half of those kills come from the vulching of car bombers or from banzai buffs that fly low over fields and get killed by ack and the closest fighter gets a free kill and from ackstarring when FH's are down. Consider also that the amount of buffs seen in the air is mighty disproportionate to the amount of fighters up there.. i'd say buffs are kicking bellybutton and taking names.

I do believe a single buff should have something to give it survivability in the MA. But increased firepower is not the solution, its an irritation. I would be perfectly happy if the buffs took 4X the damage they take now to kill and I dont care if the nose gun can fire through the fuselage at a low 6 con, or that the guns have increased range due to lag issues. I do care about the perfect convergence/turbolaser damage those guns have. A single buff is to be approached with caution (in RL that lone buff wouldve been dead quite quickly), and a small formation has to be approached with either a LOT of E or a lot of friends, 3 B-26's in formation with people at the guns is extremely hard to get..and 3 B-17's are simply not even worth trying to attack alone, too many 57mm flying around.

BTW, uppped a pony and a 205 & 109's &190's and got some buffs in them... I was simply stupefied at the amazing amount of damage those things can take. I think the P-51 (most fragile of them all imo) can take like 8 pings before something gets whacked or plane gets torn apart. 109 is a tank. 190 engine dies but them beut cannons finish the job quickly *heehee* and 205 is a sheer joy to torment the gunner by doing circles all around the buff mwhahahaha  

Conclusion: Buff guns do too much damage and the P-38 is porked. (not as if I didnt see that one coming..LOL).

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: Tac ]

[ET]

Tac,speaking just for myself.I do not go low over bases when ack is up and do not do the carbomb thing.I have been killed by flak and M16s strafing after ack is down.
Most all of the times I get killed is by fighters between 15-20K.The singles coming down from altitude at a fast speed are the toughest.When there is 2-3 of them together you know your going down even if you take 1 or 2 with you.
I agree that the 190 and P51 take a lot of hits to kill.Sometimes I think I hit them them 15-20 times and they just bore in and get the kill anyway.No one campaigns to make them easier to kill and I'm not either.
As far as the stats go,its the only info I have to compare what is happening and those stats are put together by HTC.Just raw data from independent source.

[LePaul]

Well its nice to see who the anti-buff folks are.  Grun seems to feel anyone who flies a buff alone is a tard, but I challenge ANY of you who are NOT in a squad to go out into the Main Arena, announce you are going to take a B-17 or Lancaster to a heavily defended target (base, HQ, whatever...) and see if you can actually GET any escort.

If you DO take a buff, folks left and right will ask you to bomb this or that, but don't you dare interfere with their furballing and expect them to cover you.  Sure, there are few folks in here that are pretty good about at least giving you a Check Six if they see a con climbing to a buff, and some guys might even try to plow you a path.  But in over a year of playing and mainly bufsquealing, its a strong minority.

Can the buff be improved?  Sure.  Is the gunnery unfair?  I dunno, that's pretty debatable.  Are the bombs too accurate?  Well, do you want BUFFs in the arena or not?  If they have to calculate windage, drift and all those other real life factors, I think you furballers will get your wish and have less buffs bothering to up.

I'm just in awe at how many of the posts in here come across as anti-buff.  Gee whizz, one of them shot you down and God Lord we know it simply wasnt your fault...obviously we must decompile the game and make sure this never happens again, eh?    

(Ever hear of the Golden BB theory?  It got the F-117a over the Balkins downed....simply put, if you throw enough ordinance in the air, you're bound to hit something!)

[Seeker]

Urchin,


     I don't for one minute doubt the frustration you felt. However, given that the plane will fly like that, and there's no rules to inhibit doing so, what's your solution? If provocative whining on Ch.1 worked, Grunhertz would be in heaven right now......(don't make me put you on "the list"    )

  Secondly, I'm certainly game to test the Ta thingy out. We bump into each other enough online, give me a shout next time we see each other and I'd be very glad to work on it with you. It could be you're right, a 30K buff is unassailable, but while I'm no great buff driver my self, I have doubts about your assertion that he can circle at a constant height _loaded_; and if he's empty, then you're just looking for a kill, no?

Actualy, I do have a solution, or at least the suggestion for one.

Dog fighting buffs (dog buffs) have been a pain in the bellybutton ever since DOK worked out you could do it. One thing that's been suggested a thousand times (but never, to my knowledge inplemented in any sim) is a drasticaly lowered Gloc number for buff gunners. While the gunner himself should be able to withstand 5-6 G; same as the pilot, what about all those ammo trays and feed chains? I reckon it was a rare buff gunner who could operate effectively at + 3G. Black 'em out at 3G, and maybe we'll get some where.......

[SKurj]

A buff can circle at 30k Loaded but NOT very tightly.  Full rudder for more than 180 degrees will cause a stall.  


SKurj

[Urchin]

Na, he was loaded.  He bombed the base I was landing at after I ran out of fuel.  

My "test" as it were, I was also loaded.  I only flew at 15k though, not 30k.  I'll try it at 30k, but I have no doubts that it can circle.

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by -ammo-:



I'll give it a shot, lets do it in the name of research and developement.

offer still stands urchin. Was it just a personal thing between yourself and seeker or are you really wanting to prove or disprove this?

[Urchin]

nah ammo, I'll do it with you as well.  Right now it is T-storming here, so I'm about to turn the computer off.  I'm normally on at all different times after 3 PM or so.  Give me a time that you are normally on and I'll pop in and give you a tell.

[Don]

But please at least force buff pilots to jump into the gunner positions to check for bandits just like vehicle drivers must now do.  

-- Todd/DMF[/QB]

I agree. Buffs are tough enough and near impossible to bring down wihtout the added advantage of being able to see where you are at any time, and still fly rings around an interceptor at 25k.
If a Buffer wants to milkrun an airfield all he has to do is take up a buff and not worry about being stopped. Contrary to other opinions stated, there does seem to be increased leth from buffs. I know, I got hammered by them yesterday while I was climbing up underneath em (safest approach these  days). They began shooting at 800 yds and nailed me even as I attempted to dive away from em. Now for one or two 50 cals to be that accurate and that lethal from over 800yds, something has got to be wrong.
Fyrther, if playability is the issue, then shouldn't it be up to the buff pilot to enlist gunners? Its gotten so the most historically lethal interceptors to Hvy Bombers can't touch an auto gunned, 10X lethal, all seeing, acrobatic B17 or Lanc.

[SKurj]

Buffs do not have auto guns.  Any fighter except for perhaps some of the earlier models, can kill a 17 or a lanc or any buff in the game, from above in 1-2 passes.

Climbing up to a buff is errrmm nothing personal, but STUPID +)

Buffs are fine as is, go fly em if u don't believe me.  The only buffs that get to land alot of the time either fly at 30k, or fly in the swarm of green with a horseshoe up their butts.

If u make buffs less survivable than they already are, the next time you want those hangars dropped and noone replies, you'll know why.

SKurj

[iculus]

A couple good slashing passes will bring down any buff.  You just need to hit them right.

[Replicant]

Originally posted by Don:

I know, I got hammered by them yesterday while I was climbing up underneath em (safest approach these  days). They began shooting at 800 yds and nailed me even as I attempted to dive away from em. Now for one or two 50 cals to be that accurate and that lethal from over 800yds, something has got to be wrong.

The belly attack is SO predictable that almost all seasoned buff drivers know how to evade this attack.  To me this approach is only any good if you have more than one fighter attacking, otherwise it's almost as dumb as approaching from dead-six.  I rub my hands when I see a con trying to climb and belly attack my Lanc or B26 because they think you're can't defend.... but turn 90-120 degrees (hard or gentle) and they're bang on your 6.... you have your guns to aim at them then.

As others have mentioned, the best way to attack is to plan it... and preferably from directly above or a high speed high 10 or 2 o'clock approach which I find the hardest to defend.

I fly the Lanc a fair amount, and some attackers think that the Lanc is extremely weak and can't fire back.  It's because of this that they get negligent and try an idiotic approach, and then whine if they get shot down.  This is more apparent when flying the Ju88.  Both the Lanc and Ju88 are tough planes, but the Ju88 has weak guns and the Lanc has only limited rear turret ammo.  Make him waste his ammo.  People forget that in WWII you'd often ghost a lone plane and take your time and try and wear them out, not just going in guns blazing trying to get a kill after only being in the air 10 minutes (109 G10).

Think again attacks.

As for losing the buff external view, the only thing that I think this would do is encourage AI gunners and that's the last thing I would like to see.

Regards

Nexx

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: Replicant ]

[Don]

>>>"a lone buff is still at a disadvantage when faced with a lone fighter. And a lone buff confronted with 2 fighters working together might as well kiss his arse goodbye."

A lone buff shouldnt be alone, they are prey not predators (or shouldn't be) by themselves.
Lone Buffs tend to milkrun, which shouldn't be encouraged by providing them with ridiculous advantages.
Realism? Pfft! this aint real   But it can be fun if it were fair.
One of you guys said it might require teamwork...amen ta dat bruther! Teamwork in AH's MA is sorely lacking but, thats another story.
Man! A guy can take a buff up, switch to tail or other gunner spot and look outside and still turn the plane? LOL! It's a miracle visited upon us lowly dweebs....mbaaaaaaa!  

[Don]

>>>"Climbing up to a buff is errrmm nothing personal, but STUPID +)"

Hehe, personal? Naw!! THis aint personal Skurj. It's about strange modeling of an airplane which by itself ought to be used with sense and only within it's envelope of believability. What should be stupid is taking a lone buff up over an nme base, but  the full confidence that the a/c can do all of the amazing things it "shouldn't" be able to do makes it stupid like a fox.
Stupid is doing the same thing over and over again with the same result. Hehe, a Lanc doesn't have a ball turret gunner but can still kill you as you approach from dead underneath it; that aint stupid, thats crazy.
The result is, guys like me won't climb all the way up there to have to deal with a porked nme airplane. Sheesh! So much for playability.
Btw, it aint necessary for me to have to excuse you, avoid that by refraining from accusing a total stranger of being stupid, that aint cool