Author Topic: Quick question about stall horns?  (Read 3017 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2010, 03:35:55 AM »
So the ailerons still have effect (mostly for beginning pilots).
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Offline Serenity

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2010, 03:47:58 AM »
So the ailerons still have effect (mostly for beginning pilots).

QFT.

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2010, 03:58:40 AM »
ok that makes sense :aok
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2010, 06:50:36 AM »
So the ailerons still have effect (mostly for beginning pilots).
Debatable (the part about for beginning pilots).  Actually, the whole argument about stalls beginning at the trailing edge is immaterial to the pilot, what is important to the pilot is maintaining control, adequate stall warning so he can maximize performance without inordinate fear of stall/departure, and an easily recoverable stall.  A wing is a three-dimensional surface and designers do design aircraft (even now) so that an inner wing surface will stall before the tip does.  That is one of the points to washout (whether generated by twist or differences in the airfoil section) and stall strips (which are specifically designed to trigger localized stall on an inboard section of a wing.  It is not something done only for beginning pilots and trainers although trainers are likely to have a more pronounced washout and stall warning.  Even now with advanced fly-by-wire control systems and automatic maneuvering flaps/slats in modern fighters washout is still used.

The idea that in a "perfect world" the entire wing would stall at the same time is theoretically correct as the wing's maximum potential lift would be generated because the entire wing is at it's CLmax just prior to stall, however, once you go past critical AoA the entire wing will stall, sometimes abruptly.  This is not a good thing in the real world.  First, stalling at the wingtips destroys aileron effectiveness and therefore control.  Second, there would be little margin for error when operating near critical AoA, and third, the stall would tend to be abrupt.  The designers chore is to arrive at a good balance of warning, control and performance.  Pilots need to be able to ride the edge of stall for maximum turn performance while maintaining control (while doing some fairly abrupt control movements) and designing a wing so that the inboard sections begin to stall first enhances his ability to do this.  

The P51 stall video is nice but is only one condition; a wings level, unaccelerated stall and therefore mostly irrelevant to the discussion of ACM where accelerated stalls are the problem.  The film is of a benign slow speed, wings level stall while the problems of abrupt and violent stall/departure occurs during accelerated stalls.  You have to carefully note under what circumstances a test or discussion is related to before jumping to conclusions.  Many aircraft can have a benign approach configuration stall yet still have an abrupt and violent accelerated stall.

Also, the argument that buffet on the P51's tail is caused by "induced drag" is incorrect.  It is related only in that induced drag increases with increasing lift but the source of induced drag isn't separated airflow but wingtip vortices's and the inclination of the lift vector relative to the flightpath.  A burble is created when the airflow begins to separate from the wing surface, i.e., at the beginning of a stall which is convenient since separation of airflow is the definition of stall.  The fact that induced drag occurs at the same time is irrelevant.  It is the burble from the stalled section of wing impacting the tail surfaces which causes the stick to tremble.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 07:55:44 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline hitech

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2010, 10:48:38 AM »
Also: Not sure where the info is about buffeting in the p51, I can defiantly say after many stalls, some approach some accelerated I could not feel any buffet or  stick tickle pre stall. The pilot said he could hear a slight growl from the air scoop and that is how he judge the edge, I could never hear it. Approach low power stalls were non dramatic, I.E. nose lowers just about like a Cessna, Accelerated stalls during fighting always produced at least a 90 deg snap before I would recover with slam of rudder and snap stick forward (no idea how coordinated I was) , would then instantly hook back up. These were at  a 5 or 6 g speeds.

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Offline Strip

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2010, 10:52:34 AM »
About how I would describe the P-51 in AH2....

 :aok

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2010, 01:40:32 PM »
All information I posted on the traits of the P-51 come straight from the 'North American P-51 Mustang Pilots Flight Operating Instructions' Technical Order No. IF-51D-1 and very nearly all other information on stalls straight out of Embry Riddle notes which are in direct conflict with what Mace said about root first stalls.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2010, 01:44:15 PM »
The quote was from Capt Eric Brown at RAE Farnborough in his conversation with General Doolittle. In whole what he said was that the Spitfire was too fragile to carry enough fuel to escort bomber groups deep into Germany and fight at the same time. If it was stiffened for the extra weight of fuel it would be too heavy to fight and so it must be relegated to interceptor roles.

The question was concerning what was going wrong with escort duties at the time (December 1943) and why it was the P-38s and P-47s were such a disaster in Germany while the P-38 was doing such a 'marvelous job' in the Pacific? Capt Browns answer was: 'Against German fighters at high altitudes you need Mustangs.'

I am sure there is also an official report out there somewhere to the same effect.
That doesn't support your prior claim that the Spitfire was too fragile to fight at high speeds.  The fact that the Spitfire Mk XIV was put into service is pretty solid evidence that the Spitfire was quite capable of fighting at high speeds and high altitudes.

As to the fuel, the US and UK both modified a Spitfire to carry more fuel, but the shocks were fully compressed on the ground and dogfighting in it would have been banned until the rear tank was mostly drained, just like the P-51D.  In the actual event, long range Spitfires were never needed thanks to the existence of the Mustang so neither project was developed further.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2010, 02:07:32 PM »
Sorry Karnak no I was talking about flying escorts to high altitudes against German fighters and did not make myself clear. I would have thought the revelation of where the conversation came from would have made things clear for you though.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2010, 02:26:25 PM »
Right, it was your original comment about the Spitfire that confused me.  Your post stating where you got it had a different claim, about the Spitfire being too fragile to carry enough fuel rather than having problems with combat at high speed or altitude.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2010, 04:09:16 PM »
Oh well anyone that knows the spit at all knows its fast enough and I think it even has a higher combat mach than the P-51 even though RAE didnt mention it in the Doolittle report (probably because they were discussing primarily American fighters). Either way... was the Spitfire up to long range escort in 1943? Was it fighting above 30k?

RAE also states that the 109K4 had the WEP purposely removed because of engine durability issues. If thats true than perhaps the K4 needs a re-looking after?
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2010, 04:41:14 PM »
All information I posted on the traits of the P-51 come straight from the 'North American P-51 Mustang Pilots Flight Operating Instructions' Technical Order No. IF-51D-1 and very nearly all other information on stalls straight out of Embry Riddle notes which are in direct conflict with what Mace said about root first stalls.
The pilot's manual would be pretty interesting reading!  If you would can you check the conditions that it uses with regards to stall?  I suspect that it's either in the PA (powered approach) condition with landing flaps and gear extended or a wings level deceleration vice a high-G accelerated stall.  Typically flight manuals cover basic stuff like how to start the engine and operational flight characteristics during takeoff and landing separately from tactical characteristics.  Even if you do find it, manuals can be wrong (and are wrong more often than pilots would like to know).  For instance, it was claimed early on that the F14 was "stall proof" and the A4 NATOPS claimed it had a 720 deg/sec roll rate.....ahhhh.....both WRONG!  Now days maneuvering performance is usually covered in a separate TACMAN but they may not have even bothered with this back in WWII and assumed it would be covered in squadron-level training.  As a side note, I'm also quite jealous that HiTech had the opportunity to get stick time in a Mustang.  I was supposed to fly a Hawker Sea Fury at TPS way back in '87 but came down with the flu the day before :-(

I googled the article you mention (the one by Dave Esser?) and think that you may have misread a couple of parts and the confusion is the argument that stall doesn't begin at the root but at the trailing edge.  This is only partially correct.  First off, the description of stall progressing from the trailing edge forward is absolutely correct but Esser is really talking about local stall, i.e., stall along a particular cord line.  The wing is three dimensional and can (and is) designed with the overall progression of stall not just from the trailing edge forward but across the span, what Esser is calling the stall progression pattern.  This pattern is what the WWII aircraft designer is controlling by wash-out, stall strips, leading edge slats, etc., and he must do this so as to maximize wing performance without losing stall warning and creating violent stall/departures.  The success of the overall design is what is most important to pilots.  
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Offline Baumer

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Re: Quick question about stall horns?
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2010, 05:32:57 PM »
Mace,

Here's the page I have from the "Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions for the the Army Model P-51-D-5" dated April 5, 1944 (AN 01-60JE-1)

Click on the image to make sure it's as large as possible.
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