German reconnaissance efforts against Britain- 1943-1944

[B3YT]

what?? how does that prove the spit sucks ? really how?
as i said the largest proportion of RAF aircraft that took part in the operation that day were bombers not spitfires or other fighter craft.  ergo your assumption that the spitfire sucked is wrong. In fact your "prof" shows that German aircraft sustained heavy losses to a mostly ground attack force making them the craft that "sucked".

[Karnak]

Data set A: player with a 190 in sig gets a total of 10 posts before he is banned = 190 sux in game
Data set B: player with a mossie in sig gets a total 10,000+ posts and not banned = mossie rules in game

No, people get banned for being hostile, insulting people and HTC rather than posting valid data and issues.


I have made many, many posts trying to get the Mosquito's performance to where I think it should be and have been unsuccessful to date.  I haven't been banned because I haven't gone nuts over it like the Fw190 fans you refer to.


Be calm, be rational and you don't get banned.  Easy.

[Angus]

Karnak:
"Had the US not got into the European War, the Soviet Union would have eventually beaten Germany.  There is a chance the UK could have saved France and Belgium from inclusion in the Soviet Union by invading them at the last moment, but that is about it."

That is a lovely issue for...another thread
It would need more refining though. My look on this is none the less, that it might have ended with a draw.
You see, the US helped stocking up the USSR as well as participating in the med at very crucial times.
Moscow held by a margin, Stalingrad by a hair´s width, and even Kursk was dicey....after that the road was for Berlin....and after Normandy...no question.

[B3YT]

in fact had the UK not sent supplies to miminsk then that port would have fallen to the Germans .

[Angus]

OIh, Schlowy, you really would need to get a German vet's opinion on ;
A: Fighting Spitfires
B: Flying Spitfires.

I have had some straight in the face....quite interesting.

Then there is also the other side:
A: Fighting in a Spitfire.
B: Flying a Spitfire.

(Hint: the B answer is very similar in both cases)

P.S.  Werner Mölders, the LW top ace at the time actually got on the six of a Spitty in his 109, only to get completely outmaneuvered and shot-up. tsk tsk....

[Karnak]

P.S.  Werner Mölders, the LW top ace at the time actually got on the six of a Spitty in his 109, only to get completely outmaneuvered and shot-up. tsk tsk....

You should have noted that the Spit pilot was "Sailor" Malan, one of the top RAF pilots.  Just any Spit pilot would not have been able to do that to Mölders.

[Angus]

Hehe, and Mölders, doing exactly the right maneuver to settle on Malan's six (Malan shot his wingman) was also not just "anybody".
Top pilot vs top pilot, 109 Starts on the six....

[Squire]

My understanding is the LW tended to favor single engined recon a/c over the UK like the Bf109G-2/U2 and Bf 109G-8 for high alt recon missions, rather than the slower twin engined a/c. There was a Fw190A-5/U4 recon a/c, although I have no info on Western Front deployment, it would have been used as a low level maching im sure.

The Fw189 was a tactical recon machine, unsuited to missions over the UK, and the Ju-86p was too vulnerable by 1943. Night time? well, sure, but you dont get much info, so you needed a recon fighter that could fly high, and fast, and get out of there in a hurry. The Arado 234 and Me262 (none were ever flown as recon birds past prototypes) were not available untill after Normandy.

This did limit their efforts, but the biggest problem was not that they did not know about the Allied buildup, they did, it was WHERE and WHEN the invasion was going to land, that was the question they failed to adequately answer in a timely fashion. It is remarkable that even after the Airborne Landings and the Seaborne invasion force was at sea for many hours, that the fact the Allies had landed in Normandy *as the main invasion effort* ,was still not fully understood by the German High Command untill well after the fact, despite being braced for that very eventuality.

I would say the failure was more on the intelligence side, rather than the recon side, although they are linked, as intel gets its info (at least some) from recon sources.

[Angus]

I have a fine photo of a recce shot down over N-Africa in 1942/43,- it was a 109.
Anyway, flying over the target at high alt is not just enough, it needs to be both clear and bright enough.
And flying for a photo recce from France over to S-England is relatively easy compared to a recce from England to Berlin....bear in mind the time that the aircraft has to use above hostile territory.
On the note of the Germans not recognizing Normandy (vs Pas-de-Calais) as THE landing point, it is indeed amazing. Some things were in the Allied favour though, by mere chance, such as the weather being rough and Hitler completely beliving in Pas-de-Calais. And some part was not a chance at all,such as the dummy-paratroopers and the massive "Window" effort (617 sqn?) which was completely successful in creating an invasion illusion...at Pas-de-Calais.
That is not all though, for if you venture past Normandy and into Holland in September, - operation Market-Garden has it's first flight of some 1.200(?) slow (SLOW!) troop transporters unintercepted! That is low and slow and all!!!!! It was first in the third flight that LW was showing it's teeth.
Well, same as at the beaches of Normandy....now 2 190's? (Priller)

[Bino]

I'm not going to say I'm deep into this but the Normandy buildup, and then invasion, was certainly no secret to the Germans. We went to extreme lengths to create entire armies from Props and inflatable vehicles. I think there was even great fanfare over Patton being given command of one such army just to throw off the Germans. The plan was called "Fortitude" and was created to make the Germans believe we were going to attack at Pas de Calais instead of Normandy and was probably the greatest such success of the entire war.

...

One of my old high school friends only recently discovered that his Dad was one of the sound engineers who served in the "Ghost Army", the 23rd Headquarters Special Troops. One of the constituent units, the 603rd Camouflage Engineers, was responsible for the rubber tanks you mention.  My friend's Dad was recruited from Bell Labs to serve in the 3132nd Signal Company, which often ran deceptions from sound trucks immediately behind the front lines.

Here is the main link for the film being prepared on the 23rd HQX: http://www.ghostarmy.org/

[B3YT]

bit like the film "hell is for heroes " with Gregory  Peck and Bob Newheart. where they drive the jeep round and round to make it sound like a convoy.

[Angus]

Well, the whole of the bluffs about Normandy surely worked....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fortitude

[Kev367th]

It was over Egypt. And it was closer to 49,000ft. Redefines "pilot discomfort" for the poor RAF guy don't ya think?

Your both wrong.

The highest recorded interception was by a modified Spit 9 from RAF Northolts High Altitude Flight in 1942.

Piloted by Emanuel Galitzine (A Russian Prince) he intercepted a JU-86P at 'around' 43,000ft causing it to jettison its bombs.

Your are correct in that there were either 2 or 3 highly modified Spit 5's that flew out of Egpyt and were for also for intercepting JU-86P's.

It is generally accepted that Galitzines interception was the highest of WW2.

Highest recorded alt (for a Spit) was in a Spit 19 over Hong Kong in 1952 - 51,550ft!!

[Guppy35]

Ju86R actually.  They identified it as a 86P.  Galitzine had one cannon quit working and at such high alt firing one cannon caused the Spit to skid.  He hit the 86R one time in the wing, but it was the last time they sent one over England.

Galitzine was also a Spit XII driver with 41 Squadron in 43 and ended up in the MTO flying Spit IXs later.  I had a chance to meet him back in the mid 80s when I was hunting Spit XII info.  A really nice and helpful gentleman

[Angus]

Always the nice surprize Guppy