JSF "clubbed like baby seals"

[Hangtime]

We already have an system that has been operating here in Australia for years that can spot it. The system in itself is not a secret, but some of the way it does what it does is. Suffice to say it does not rely on FCS to identify and track a target.

[SD67]

Not quite.
OTH Systems: Australia

A more recent addition is the Jindalee over-the-horizon radar developed by the Australian Department of Defence in 1998 and completed in 2000. Jindalee is a multistatic radar (multiple-receiver) system using OTH-B, allowing it to have both long range as well as anti-stealth capabilities. Interestingly, Jindalee uses 560 kW as compared to the US's OTH-B's 1 MW, yet offers far better range than the US 1980s system, due to the considerably improved electronics and signal processing.[1]

[CAP1]

People thought the A-10 wasn't worth it either. It was the best tank killer of the Cold War era.

WAS?

still is the best ground attack aircraft, bar none.

[CAP1]

We already have an system that has been operating here in Australia for years that can spot it. The system in itself is not a secret, but some of the way it does what it does is. Suffice to say it does not rely on FCS to identify and track a target.

that was my point. if we know you can or will be able to spot our planes anyway, then why waste the money on stealth? spend it on protecting the pilot, and spend it on making it the best in the world like the F15, 16, and the FA 18.

[Elfie]

WAS?

still is the best ground attack aircraft, bar none.

It's being phased out as far as I know.

[CAP1]

It's being phased out as far as I know.

really? i hadn't heard that? i'll have to check with my air force friends........last i heard they had updated the electronics, and were planning on keeping them in service till at least 2020.

there really is nothing better than the warthog for ground attack. turns on a dime, can stand hits to the cockpit area from 30mm rounds, can fly single engine, redudnant flight control backups, and of course the 30mm gatling cannon......who wants to face 4,000 rounds/minute of hell?

 i've read of these comming back home on manual controls as the primary, and primary backup systems hadf been destroyed.

[Elfie]

really? i hadn't heard that? i'll have to check with my air force friends........last i heard they had updated the electronics, and were planning on keeping them in service till at least 2020.

there really is nothing better than the warthog for ground attack. turns on a dime, can stand hits to the cockpit area from 30mm rounds, can fly single engine, redudnant flight control backups, and of course the 30mm gatling cannon......who wants to face 4,000 rounds/minute of hell?

 i've read of these comming back home on manual controls as the primary, and primary backup systems hadf been destroyed.

It's been awhile since I heard of plans to phase it out, but if the electronics have been updated you are probably correct. 

[Rich46yo]

We already have an system that has been operating here in Australia for years that can spot it. The system in itself is not a secret, but some of the way it does what it does is. Suffice to say it does not rely on FCS to identify and track a target.

Not exactly. Its true JORN is capable of detecting aircraft with a reduced RCS but only under perfect atmospheric conditions. All JORN is is high frequency radar being bounced off the ionosphere in the same way radio waves are. The problem with that is that during certain times of the day, most of all morning and night, or during storms, the Ionosphere dont want to cooperate. Another issue is JORN only covers the north of Australia, where the sea lanes are. And another is that JORN is very expensive and relys on a few high value land stations, "and we've seen how long those last in war".

So we didn't design our stealth aircraft to defeat the kind of radar system JORN is. Nor was JORN designed to defeat stealth aircraft. Nor was a system like JORN a secret at the time of stealth aircraft development. If we wanted to attack a country with JORN we would just go in in the morning and take out the radar stations. Even better, send TLACMs. Or we would just aim the CV to the south of the country where there is no JORN coverage.

Fact is JORN was built more to control boat traffic then to detect stealth. Heck the same company making the F-35 was involved in constructing JORN.

that was my point. if we know you can or will be able to spot our planes anyway, then why waste the money on stealth? spend it on protecting the pilot, and spend it on making it the best in the world like the F15, 16, and the FA 18.

Read the above. And then compare the pilot safety rate per sortie, F-117 vs F-legacy, even taking into account the 117 flew alone and unarmed into some of the most heavily defended airspace in the world.

[CAP1]

Not exactly. Its true JORN is capable of detecting aircraft with a reduced RCS but only under perfect atmospheric conditions. All JORN is is high frequency radar being bounced off the ionosphere in the same way radio waves are. The problem with that is that during certain times of the day, most of all morning and night, or during storms, the Ionosphere dont want to cooperate. Another issue is JORN only covers the north of Australia, where the sea lanes are. And another is that JORN is very expensive and relys on a few high value land stations, "and we've seen how long those last in war".

So we didn't design our stealth aircraft to defeat the kind of radar system JORN is. Nor was JORN designed to defeat stealth aircraft. Nor was a system like JORN a secret at the time of stealth aircraft development. If we wanted to attack a country with JORN we would just go in in the morning and take out the radar stations. Even better, send TLACMs. Or we would just aim the CV to the south of the country where there is no JORN coverage.

Fact is JORN was built more to control boat traffic then to detect stealth. Heck the same company making the F-35 was involved in constructing JORN.
 

Read the above. And then compare the pilot safety rate per sortie, F-117 vs F-legacy, even taking into account the 117 flew alone and unarmed into some of the most heavily defended airspace in the world.

i think the point is though.......if australia has the capability at all, it will only improve, to complete coverage. also, if australia has it, then others most certtainly do, or will in the near future.

[Elfie]

i think the point is though.......if australia has the capability at all, it will only improve, to complete coverage. also, if australia has it, then others most certtainly do, or will in the near future.

If you re-read Rich's post, there are huge holes in the coverage, not only in area covered but also certain times of the day when this particular radar doesn't work nearly as well as others. Very easy to neutralize I'd say.

[Rich46yo]

i think the point is though.......if Australia has the capability at all, it will only improve, to complete coverage. also, if Australia has it, then others most certainly do, or will in the near future.

Why? Is the Ionosphere going to go away?, or are the Laws of Physics going to change?

Australia didn't build it to protect against Stealth. They knew that to do so was silly, most of all since Lockheed Martin was involved in JORN and probably told them so. Nobody is going to invest such $$ into a technology that can be defeated by stealth. Which is why we built the stealth aircraft to be effective against the ground radars it will have to go up against in real life. Not that those radars will survive long anyway.

If you have some Hi Tech info you'd like to share with us Cap then please do so. Because these silly one liners of yours just aint making it.

The northern coast of Australia is where the piracy, drug running, and important sea lanes are. They have no plans Im aware of to expand coverage of JORN.

[CAP1]

If you re-read Rich's post, there are huge holes in the coverage, not only in area covered but also certain times of the day when this particular radar doesn't work nearly as well as others. Very easy to neutralize I'd say.

I UNDERSTOOD WHAT he was saying. what i was saying though was that the technology will come about to overcome those problems.

[CAP1]

Why? Is the Ionosphere going to go away?, or are the Laws of Physics going to change?

Australia didn't build it to protect against Stealth. They knew that to do so was silly, most of all since Lockheed Martin was involved in JORN and probably told them so. Nobody is going to invest such $$ into a technology that can be defeated by stealth. Which is why we built the stealth aircraft to be effective against the ground radars it will have to go up against in real life. Not that those radars will survive long anyway.

If you have some Hi Tech info you'd like to share with us Cap then please do so. Because these silly one liners of yours just aint making it.

The northern coast of Australia is where the piracy, drug running, and important sea lanes are. They have no plans Im aware of to expand coverage of JORN.

well, sir, these aren't silly one liners. what these are, are the statements of a man that lives in the reality of things.
the reality is, that as our stealth technology progress's, so does the technology to defeat stealth.
 you don't think our possible enemies are working their asssss's off to defeat this?

 the f117 was stealth. it was tracked on more than one occasion. the blackbird was missle locked(air to air) at least once, although it was no big deal with its speed.  i'm sure the b2 probably was too.

 we do have the best in the world, but others need to counter what we have.
step back, and look at the whole picture, and you'll agree.

[SD67]

A very interesting article about the development of the JINDALEE system.
Have a read
http://www.dsto.defence.gov.au/attachments/The_development_of_over-the-horizon_radar.pdf

[Elfie]

the f117 is stealth. it was tracked on more than one occasion. the blackbird was missile locked(air to air) at least once, although it was no big deal with its speed.

The F-117 is still stealthy, although not as stealthy as the F-22 and F-35, it still gets the job done quite nicely. Interesting, out of all the sorties it has flown in combat zones, only one has been lost to enemy fire. I'd say it works just fine.

The SR-71 was fired upon many times by SAMs. I know of at least one incident over Korea where the SR-71 pilot saw the missile trail coming upwards and said to his co-pilot....Oh look, they're shooting at us, and opened the throttle. That missile missed by something like 7 miles.