Author Topic: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA  (Read 1914 times)

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2008, 06:27:23 PM »
but the 61 is a mediocre climber, barely scratching 3000 fpm at sea level. It's even beaten by American planes like the P-47D40, P-51 and P40E

Like I've said "It's the Indian, NOT the Arrow."   I implore you all to keep bashing the 61, It's a steaming pile of cow dung.   Don't listen to me!   
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Offline pluck

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2008, 08:05:52 PM »
cartoon airplane life is overated.

funny about most of these alt monkeys, is they have no idea what do with it.  Most guys stay high, make a few lame passes...eventually get frustrated, blow the E, blow there alt, and end up a flaming wreck.  Makes me wonder why they bothered to climb all the way up there to begin with.  I might add, picking planes as they are going after others I guess is an effective strategy, but not sure how fun.  How fun can something be when it takes no effort and has little to no danger?....then again, people love vulching too.

Maybe some people will have slightly better k/d ratio's, that is what is most important anyway.  How would anyone know your any good unless they look at your rank :rofl 
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Offline 1pLUs44

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2008, 09:00:14 PM »
Like I've said "It's the Indian, NOT the Arrow."   I implore you all to keep bashing the 61, It's a steaming pile of cow dung.   Don't listen to me!   

I see it as the Japanese P-39.  It's underestimated, but in the right hands, watch out!
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2008, 09:08:57 PM »
Speed and maneuverability are almost diametrically opposed in WWII air combat fighters. The faster the plane the lower its sustained turn-rate and vice-versa. I call speed fighters "initiative" fighters, because that's really what speed is, the potential for tactical and strategic initiative. The ability to get and maintain the initiative is crucial in air combat. At its core speed is actually an offensive quality. It affords the fighter the opportunity to attack with a high rate of closure with relative impunity assuming the advantage can be maintained. Superior maneuverability is defensive at its core, affording the opportunity to turn at a rate that spoils a potential gun solution of a plane that cannot match that turn-rate. The only time turn-rate can be offensive is if the enemy has already decided to turn with you and you are able to gain angles for a shot with it. If he decides not to turn with you, turn-rate can only serve a defensive purpose.

The ability to engage and disengage at will is an extremely powerful tool for the thinking fighter pilot. Maintaining the initiative in this way is difficult in complex engagements, but when done properly, in concert with good SA and gunnery, it's magical. The ability to turn well is extremely important in isolated encounters, but in a complex engagements against equally skilled foes it becomes largely defensive and relatively unimportant. The only way maneuverability is going to allow you to disengage is if you destroy all the enemy that choose to engage you, which is obviously impractical in most complex engagements.

If you think of speed as initiative you quickly realize that it allows you to choose when, if, where and how a fight occurs. Even a fast plane that is "egressing" actually has the initiative, he is effectively pulling the chasers around by the nose, they are the tail and he is the dog. The problem with initiative fighters in the MA is a lot of people use them poorly and misunderstand how to fully exploit the initiative. Exploiting the initiative to maximum effectiveness is very cerebral and nuanced, not nearly as straightforward and mechanical as latching onto someone's 6 with a Zeke and plugging away until one of you dies. A lot of people use initiative fighters who really don't have the disposition for it or sufficient understanding of it, this leads to the "timidity" factor observed in the MA and their relative ineffectiveness.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 09:54:26 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline trotter

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2008, 12:36:40 AM »
Flying solo, speed has always been the greatest MA asset. It allows you to pick your fights, rather than fighting the "pile on" horde behaviour.

My biggest gripe with the MA and any unstructured combat is that planes from the nearest enemy base will continually up, making your fight harder and harder to ultimately win unless you can extend when necessary. It's not the fair tradeoff of "Well, if I blow my E in this 190A8 to get this kill, it puts me in a bad position, but at least it's one bad guy out of the fight." No. At least one more enemy has joined the fight to replace the one you sacrificed your E for. You don't get your E magically back. So in many ways it's not as dweebish as it's made out to be to put yourself in a fast enough plane so you don't fall victim to the oncoming conga line.

I use speed as a means of finding fair engagements. If I'm in a fast plane low and slow and see an unwinnable fight developing, I'll try to get out until I can get the odds back to at least their 2 vs my 1. So while some may say it must be boring running from a mass of red planes, it's actually more fun to me in the long run, as I end up getting more fair fights by dictating the fighting terms.

Offline Delirium

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2008, 01:00:05 AM »
In my opinion, the K4 is the best non-perk plane in the game.  

Combining speed with an incredible rate of climb is the easiest way to dictate a fight, or to evade one.
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Offline SectorNine50

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2008, 03:24:27 AM »
I think acceleration in a VERY scary thing in the MA.  So many times I've watched a Spitfire make a complete 180 degree turn to get on my six, and somehow accelerate to over 300 MPH in a split second... :frown:
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Offline Hap

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2008, 07:27:36 AM »
About acceleration . . . many times I'll merge with a F4U.  I'll be 250 - 300 mph (white needle) or better.  Look behind me as tracers pass the canopy and see the hog 600 out.  Had no clue why since I've not flown the hog for years.

Yesterday I flew them all.  And during a normal merge, sure enough, I'd be 600 back of the bad guy after a merge.  The real hog pilots use its acceleration to much better affect than I.

Acceleration/speed/alt relative to what's able to wack you or be wacked by you means tons.  Too much and you're out of the loop.  Too little and you're in the tower.

Offline bongaroo

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2008, 07:31:30 AM »
Combining speed with an incredible rate of climb is the easiest way to dictate a fight, or to evade one.

One thing about 109s I've usually noticed is that they want to fight, not extend past icon and maybe a sector or two just in case; some p51 guys rely soley on that ability.  zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz so boring.
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Offline Yenny

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2008, 10:07:20 AM »
I <3 K4. It's probably the best over 5 perk TnB plane in the game after the F4Us.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2008, 10:12:12 AM »
I <3 K4. It's probably the best over 5 perk TnB plane in the game after the F4Us.

Give us back the 109G-10 with a 20mm MG151!!!! :D
 :pray
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2008, 10:49:00 AM »

In my opinion, the K4 is the best non-perk plane in the game.
Depends. If you actually want to fight, there are better choices.


The only thing the K4 sucks at is going downhill.  BnZ is hard without hawking your airspeed indicator.  It's not a big advantage to come in with alot of alt to kill cause the plane sucks going downhill.

Rule #253
When in K4 you attack from same or lower altitude.
Rule #254
When in K4 you attack at same or slower speed if con is heading your way.
Rule #255
Sometimes you have to violate rule #253 and #254

If you constantly have to dive on cons, you're using K4 wrong way. 


Nothing behind me.  I egress at 100' on the water, full WEP.  Flaps sucked up.  I'm checking 6, but I look clear.  About 3 minutes go by and then WHAM!  something lights me up and it's straight to the tower.  Some dude got tucked in behind that blast shield, reeled in the distance, lit me up point blank.

If you fly 3 minutes, without banking and turning a bit to check your low six, then it's solely your fault. Bad bad SA. Besides, you'd have nice 1 vs 1, and in f4u, you'd have all tools necessary to kill other guy.


Some speed and I would have gotten away clean.  Without speed, no ammo, no options.

Again, matter of SA. If you are one of those who like to land, you got to save some ammo, you have to know when is time to RTB. SA SA   

Toonces, I know your flying from good old AvA days. If you'd actually bother to improve your SA and ACM you'd have options at all speeds and game would be less frustrating for you.



Offline BaldEagl

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2008, 11:04:29 AM »
MA seems to be dominated by niki's or runstangs.  The niki's will spray an pray but stay.  Runstangs you literally got to offer them your arse to keep um in the fight.

Yep....just another faze

I was flying a P-47D-11 last night.  I ran into two P-51's at different times and was hoping each would fight.  Instead each dove to my base (Jabos I guess).  Mistake.  I killed one as he tried to climb and bring it back over the top and the other as he tried to run... I mean extend... on the deck.

Put the nose down in a Jug and no Ponies going to get away.  :)
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2008, 11:52:04 AM »
Speed and maneuverability are almost diametrically opposed in WWII air combat fighters. The faster the plane the lower its sustained turn-rate and vice-versa. I call speed fighters "initiative" fighters, because that's really what speed is, the potential for tactical and strategic initiative. The ability to get and maintain the initiative is crucial in air combat. At its core speed is actually an offensive quality. It affords the fighter the opportunity to attack with a high rate of closure with relative impunity assuming the advantage can be maintained. Superior maneuverability is defensive at its core, affording the opportunity to turn at a rate that spoils a potential gun solution of a plane that cannot match that turn-rate. The only time turn-rate can be offensive is if the enemy has already decided to turn with you and you are able to gain angles for a shot with it. If he decides not to turn with you, turn-rate can only serve a defensive purpose.

The ability to engage and disengage at will is an extremely powerful tool for the thinking fighter pilot. Maintaining the initiative in this way is difficult in complex engagements, but when done properly, in concert with good SA and gunnery, it's magical. The ability to turn well is extremely important in isolated encounters, but in a complex engagements against equally skilled foes it becomes largely defensive and relatively unimportant. The only way maneuverability is going to allow you to disengage is if you destroy all the enemy that choose to engage you, which is obviously impractical in most complex engagements.

If you think of speed as initiative you quickly realize that it allows you to choose when, if, where and how a fight occurs. Even a fast plane that is "egressing" actually has the initiative, he is effectively pulling the chasers around by the nose, they are the tail and he is the dog. The problem with initiative fighters in the MA is a lot of people use them poorly and misunderstand how to fully exploit the initiative. Exploiting the initiative to maximum effectiveness is very cerebral and nuanced, not nearly as straightforward and mechanical as latching onto someone's 6 with a Zeke and plugging away until one of you dies. A lot of people use initiative fighters who really don't have the disposition for it or sufficient understanding of it, this leads to the "timidity" factor observed in the MA and their relative ineffectiveness.

I give this post a 9.9/10.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: I'm beginning to think speed is the #1 asset in the MA
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2008, 12:18:53 PM »
A half dozen sorties in a Spit, easily getting on the tail of any other Spit-N1k-even Zeke that offers a real fight, only to have them dive/run/stick stir away to friends/ack before you can shoot them while calling their 12 legions of pickers down upon you, will make a bnz/picker out of anybody.

Sorry fellas, but Zaz is right. It is just not worth it to try to have a dogfight with anybody in the MA unless you can look horizon to horizon and see no other red. OR green. Fly in a horde, come in on the tail of anyone who is occupied, and run screaming for help if it even looks like the bandit you are fighting is gaining your six, that is the way its done in the MA, and like it or lump it, it works better than trying to do it any other way.



cartoon airplane life is overated.

funny about most of these alt monkeys, is they have no idea what do with it.  Most guys stay high, make a few lame passes...eventually get frustrated, blow the E, blow there alt, and end up a flaming wreck.  Makes me wonder why they bothered to climb all the way up there to begin with.  I might add, picking planes as they are going after others I guess is an effective strategy, but not sure how fun.  How fun can something be when it takes no effort and has little to no danger?....then again, people love vulching too.

Maybe some people will have slightly better k/d ratio's, that is what is most important anyway.  How would anyone know your any good unless they look at your rank :rofl