The FW-190 series is the most poorly flown plane in the game

[BnZ]

I can never support the removal of any aircraft from the game if it saw action in WW2.  I know it's been done before, and not just to the 109, but I can't fathom a justification for it, save a desire to lump things together that were different.

 

[BnZ]

I've been playing around and shamelessly picking with the A-8 because of this thread, and I have to agree that the 4x20mm + 2x13mm armament of the A-8 isn't what you'd expect (instant death). 

I thought the MG 151/20s had a more rainbow trajectory than Hispanos because they were tossing a heavier projectile with more explosive...is that modeled in AHI?

[Motherland]

I thought the MG 151/20s had a more rainbow trajectory than Hispanos because they were tossing a heavier projectile with more explosive...is that modeled in AHI?

Apparently in Aces High kinetic energy is more important than the amount of HE in the round, because Hispanos are significantly more powerful than MG151/20s.

[Lusche]

tossing a heavier projectile with more explosive..

If two projectiles are the same size, the one with more explosive weighs less. Just sayin

And yes, the trajectories of the hispanos are flatter in AH2. The round is travelling faster and should shed speed somewhat less quickly due to the fact of being heavier than the MG151/20 - Both resulting in that flatter trajectory.

[Urchin]

Actually the way ammo is modelled in AH limits the effectiveness of the German cannons.  AH ammo is a composite of whatever rounds were in an ammo belt IRL.  I'm going off some foggy memory here, but the Hispano round had significantly higher MV than the MG151, and the standard "HE" rounds for both had roughly the same explosive content. 

IIRC a typical belt for the MG151 was 40% AP, 40% HE, and 20% Mine rounds (thin walled, with a lot of HE content).  The AP round was significantly worse than the Hispano, the HE round was slightly worse, and the Mine round was better. 

I'm completely making these numbers up, but I imagine it goes something like this for the MG151 (if one uses the Hispano as a reference). 

Again IIRC, the AP and HE rounds for the Hispano were about equally effective, so the AH Hispano round is modelled as being half HE and half AP, which were the same anyway, so it gets rated a 1.

The AP MG151 round was about half as good as the Hispano, so that is rated a .5.  The HE round was about 80% as good, so it would be a .8.  The Mine round was about even, so thats a 1.  But, the AH round is a composite round, so the AH MG151 is .5(.4) + .8(.4) + 1(.1).  That is .2 + .32 + .1, or .62.  So an individual round is about 60% as effective as an individual AH Hispano round.  I think I'd rate the MG151's hitting power at between 50-60% of the Hizooka in AH, so it bears out in my head, at least.

The firepower of the MG151 has never been changed, to my knowledge.  It is adaquate, but the 2x Hizooka 2x .50 combination of the Spitfire is about as heavy as the 4xMG151 2xMG131 on the A-8, in my opinion.  I've killed and been killed many times by 1 Hizooka round to the tail, I've never killed or been killed by a single 20mm round of any other kind.

[ink]

Whoever said the 180A-8 isn't competetive in the MA was just wrong.  I've got a 10.83 K/D rate in it on 70 combined kills plus deaths over the past six months and I suck.  No vulching but yes, some bomber kills (about 1/3-1/2 as a guess).  Those numbers were the same when I was in the hundreds of kills plus deaths in it over the same period earlier in the year (I was up around 250 K+D for a while).  That seems pretty competetive to me.  Like I said ealier, it's always among my best fighters and I personally think it's a monster in the MA.

I supplanted a lot of my A8 sorties with the K4 but even in the K4 I've never been able to match the success I have in the A8.

I guess its a matter of what you're used to.

I think the reason you did so well is your targeting skills, and maybe in that one particular plane you are even more dead on?

i know a  WW2 ace spoke these words (not sure which one)  " the better shot will most always kill the better stick..."

most often i cant hit crap but the other night in the MA, i was attacked by no less then 12 redguys, (by my self) now this is no different then most nights, but usually i only get 1 to 3 killz and die, this night i landed 7 killz, and the reason for this, is i was on "Target".

i think targeting skillz are the most important aspect of AH.

[Schlowy]

About "Rolling and Cutting" anyways... or just plain running:
I've always felt that the guy chasing us should lose speed when he fires - momentum loss. I remember a documentary, p47 guy said he slowed by 20mph, not sure how many guns or what speed he was going though. He was ground attacking stuff.

Firing should slow us down, choosing which amo to fire would be a thing too.
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Ballistics:
I was riding in the early 110 today, low alt, just above the water, with auto-pilot on, no matter what I did with the page-up, page down, the sight was below the horizon? i fired, my bullets didn't go across the horizon, they went into the water, downward.

Someone bend the guns on the 110s? and then the site to match? Or is the pilot so high above the nose?
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Aiming is about interface set up, i think... I 'scoot my whole chair forward' with the foward arrow button. Cleans up view pretty good too.

[Bronk]

About "Rolling and Cutting" anyways... or just plain running:
I've always felt that the guy chasing us should lose speed when he fires - momentum loss. I remember a documentary, p47 guy said he slowed by 20mph, not sure how many guns or what speed he was going though. He was ground attacking stuff.

Firing should slow us down, choosing which amo to fire would be a thing too.

It does slow you down.

[Stoney]

so the AH MG151 is .5(.4) + .8(.4) + 1(.1).  That is .2 + .32 + .1, or .62.  So an individual round is about 60% as effective as an individual AH Hispano round.

Why not just do a hangar test and see how they actually compare?  I don't think that your math and SWAG's are going to add up to such a large disparity.

[Stoney]

Just out of curiosity, I conducted this test my self.

Here's the parameters of the test:

1.  Conducted offline on the BoB map, using default lethality values for plane guns.  I adjusted the Hangar hardness to equal 1000 lbs of bombs for destruction.  I increased the planegunammomult command to 10X.

2.  First test, conducted twice, was with a Spit VIII.  I taxied out next to a fighter hangar and fired until destroyed.  First test got me an approximate to guide the second test.  Between 240 and 260 Hispano rounds dropped the hangar.

3.  Second test was set up exactly as the first.  I put 240 rounds of Hispano into the hangar, then used single or two round bursts until the hangar dropped.  The hangar was destroyed either at 247 or 248 rounds--I used a 2 round burst. 

4.  Third test, I set up a FW-190A8 with only the 2XMG151's and repeated the test again.  Knowing I would only need about 250 rounds, I fired that many initially, then started the 1-2 round bursts again.  The hangar was destroyed at either 279 or 280 rounds. 

Conclusions:

1 round of Hispano ammunition in game is equivalent to 2.0 lbs of HE:  1000/248 = 4.03/2 = 2.015 = 2.0
1 round of MG151  ammunition in game is equivalent to 1.8 lbs of HE:  1000/280 = 3.57/2 = 1.78 = 1.8

As 1.8/2.0 = .9, it appears that 1 round of MG151 is 90% as relatively effective as 1 round of Hispano...

QED

[Urchin]

Damage on structures and damage on planes are two different things.

[Anaxogoras]

Stoney, that doesn't account for lethality at range, but nice work.

[Stoney]

Damage on structures and damage on planes are two different things.

How so?  Have you tested it?  I contend that if you test it, it will be the exact same relationship.

[Urchin]

I want to say this discussion happened several years ago.  I'll search around on the BBS.

[Stoney]

Stoney, that doesn't account for lethality at range, but nice work.

If its cannon we're talking about, sure it does.  It's not .50 cal ball we're talking here.  Sure, there's a small portion of kinetic damage from a 20mm round, but comparitively speaking, the relationship should be the same.