Bombs dont lose E

[bertie]

 

Originally posted by TheWobble:
Funked is correct, ww2 bombs were "fatter" than todays ord, but even at VERY low e-loss to the bomb i know it would lane EXACTLY under the plane from 30k, like I said before I know its a "gameplay" thing..but cmon.

Yep, you guys are both correct, though my opinion is that the drag effect would be very small even on WW2 profile bombs...  Really all it would mean though is that the bomb release time from 30k would have to be later than it is now by a second or so.

(Sorry, my $0.02 buys more and more drivel these days.)

[MiG Eater]

Which leads to another question concerning drag/wind effects.   The airplanes are greatly affected by wind layer changes (wind shears) as evidenced by course and climb/descent rate changes.

Are the bombs in any way affected by multiple wind shears as they fall from high altitude?  I haven't seen evidence of this but a strong wind shear from 90 degrees should affect the direction of fall as well as stability if it starts wobbling.

MiG

[TheWobble]

"Are the bombs in any way affected by multiple wind shears as they fall from high altitude? I haven't seen evidence of this but a strong wind shear from 90 degrees should affect the direction of fall as well as stability if it starts wobbling."

Bombs are not affected by ANYTHING, accept gravity (sort of)  they come out of the plane perfectly straight and no matter what they will land that way.  (hence my discontent)

[TheWobble]

OK, I did a bit of testing and took some pics to show My point...

the first pic is of craters from a 12 bomb salvo at 5k at .10 second delay.

the second pic is the same as the first accept the bombs were dropped from 15k

the third pic is what I think 12 bombs dropped from 15k SHOULD look like, its just My opinion though.

     

     

     

Notice that the bombs landed EXACTLY the same dispite the 10,000 ft altitude difference.

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-09-2001).]

[SpitLead]

Ya know... I'd just love to be able to even see my bombs hit.  Can someone PLEASE tell me what view I need to be in to actually SEE my bombs hit the target? That's half of the fun of bombing!! Only from a B17 ball turret have I been able to see the bomb impacts.  From the bombardier position, you've flown past the target to far to see anything hit (i.e. you can't view backwards) and you haven't flown far enough to view it from the tail gunner position.

[Ripsnort]

F4, F5, F8, Then use your key pad to rotate so you're looking straight down, then use ZOOM key (Z) and bracket keys to go in closer.  Or, use the bottom turret in the B17.

------------------

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[SpitLead]

Thanks Ripsnort.  From one Hog lover to another :-)

I'll check it out.

[CavemanJ]

Wobble shut up about that damn dispertion toejame already.  Go watch actually footage from WWII of sticks of eggs impacting/exploding and then please explain me to why you think they should disperse as you show in your third picture.  Every bit of footage I've seen (and the TV is on history channel when the wife isn't home) shows nice straight lines of eggs going BOOM.
And the B-17s operated between 25 and 28k right?  That's just a wee bit higher than yer opinion of what it should look like at 15k lad.

[TheWobble]

Cave, maby YOU should watch them, so basically yer telling me that in real life they DONT lose E they ARE NOT affected by anything at all other than gravity?  You can tell me that the pictures above (especally the one from 15k) look right?  BTW I would have done one from 35k aswell but it would look exactly the same as the one from 5k,  
"sticks" of bombs dropped from 20k plus would scatter wildly, upon the intal departure from the bay the bombs would literally slam into eachother (which is why they didnt arm till more than half way down)  all that banging and clanging and wind and the drag and atmospheric effects cause much separation of bombs.

I tried to find pictures of craters, but all the results that came up were
A: from the Murrah federal building bombing
B: Nukes.
C: F-117 LGB strkies in the gulf (looked similar to AH footage.    )
If anyone can find, some pictures that eithe support or reject my opinion PLEASE post them, as cause I cant find nuthin.


"Wobble shut up about that damn dispertion toejame already"  

You may wish to be more courteous in your future responses as to not make people think you are 12.



[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-09-2001).]

[iculus]

Does this matter at all?  Bomb falls... target blows up either way.

<S>IC

Iculus CO
576(Bomber) Squadron-RAF
 
"...her belly loaded with the rain of destruction."
 iculus_576th@yahoo.com

[TheWobble]

"Does this matter at all? Bomb falls... target blows up either way.
<S>IC
"

Well Iculus try to look at it this way..

What does a bomber pilot live for?? dropping bombs of course.  The whole boring ride over there the fighters attacking all of that is a chor, the actual bombing is the apex of the trip, its what make the trip worth while..so when we drop bombs that fall all odd and dont behave as it should it pretty much undermines the whole reason we are there, just like fighter folks, when their planes are not modelled right or dont behave as they hisorically did, they get upset, as they should,  well to bombers the bombs we carry are more of an extension of our plane..so when they dont look/feel/behave they way they did in real life, it lessens the enjoyability of the mission.  I would compare it to having the guns on the fighters shooting 30k with no bullet drop and every round hitting in the EXACT same place.

Get what im sayin?

[flakbait]

I wouldn't mind a LITTLE bomb dispersion, but NOT that much! I've seen quite a lot of footage of bomb impacts on the History Channel. If you watch carefully you'll see some variation in bomb strikes, but not as much as you say there should be Wobble. With your dispersion you'd be lucky to hit a field at 15k. I prefer something with a tighter spread that has a little dispersion. That would give you a pretty good chance of hitting something, yet not be the laser guided ord we hate.

This is a shot from an aircraft flying over rural Kosovo. These were obviously dropped from modern aircraft, and if you look closely there is a little dispersion to them. I'm still looking for more shots of bomb craters. When I find more I'll post them.


 


-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
 

[TheWobble]

Tough to find arnt they flak?     let look at this photo and analize a bit...

Ok 4 bombs obviously, that means they were most likley dropped from a fighter, from that you can assume the alt of drop was below 8000 feet probably much so,

Also this photo looks fairly recent, indicating the bombs that did this are of modern make and thus more aerodynamic than the ww2 brethren.

I think they were all the same size bomb the larger one just probably hit softer ground(not its next to a ditch of sorts) and broached further and thus created a slightly larger crater.


NOTE: local of craters: Kosovo.
My best guess is that these are creaters from Mk82 dumb bombs dropped from below 8000 feet at a rather slow speed, a faster speed would result in a spear shaped creater as would an approach from lower than 2000 feet.

To sum up..

Modern ord (more aerodynamic)
dropped from between 2000 and 8000

more dispersion that AH's fat ww2 bombs falling from 45,000 feet.

Excellent photo, where did ya get it?

EDIT:  
   
here is a Photo that was taken in B-17 2, I know its not real life but I figured since this game was designed specifically around teh 17 that they would do the bomb modeling pretty well.

Oh my, not every single bomb exactly hit a target...that cant be right.  


[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-13-2001).]

[flakbait]

Wobble, you need glasses bad   . That's not a ditch near the far right crater it's a one lane road. In the upper left you can see some small buildings. That means the house-sized crater on the far right was caused by a Mk. 83 1,000 pound or larger bomb. Big sucker huh.

As for bomb dispersion, I don't think "minute-of-field" accuracy at 25k should be put in. Minute-of-V-hangar maybe, but not so bad to the point you NEED a massed bomber formation to hit anything. Solitary BUFFs are the norm in the main; you can't change that by throwing dispersion to hell. So you stick in a relatively light form of dispersion, just a little randomness to the drop pattern. It'll give you rather nice resuts when carpet bombing, but not allow you to hit acks from 35k.

And yes, these things are DAMN hard to track down! I got that one from the Kosovo info site put up by USAID.


-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
 

[TheWobble]

So you stick in a relatively light form of dispersion, I was refering to the ditches on either side of the road, ya cant see them per say but im sure they are there. plus damp ground and all that crap...but yea it may be a mk83...probably is.  

 

So you stick in a relatively light form of dispersion

THANK YOU GOD!

REDEMPTION!

I agree that to much dispersion would not be practicle due to lack of mass numbers, but not as ridiculus as they way there are now, AS IS dropping a salvo does very little damage because the straight line, some drift/dispersion would spread the love a bit and actually do more damage, plus single buffs shoud not be able to drop a field by themselves, at least not by hitting every ack and hanger with precision that would rival a F-117.