FAST ATTACK vs MA Mentality

[AKDejaVu]

Best results we've had on attacks were when a bomber went in solo and destroyed the FH and/or VH at a base.  Then 4 Jabo planes come in and clean everything up.  The C47 comes in just a minute later.

AKDejaVu

[Hangtime]

Rge that.. surprise is gone the moment the mission launches.. ours; or theirs. That damn bar-graph radar map in every cockpit with 175 people on line precludes any sizeable attack from getting to the target undetected.. and that includes a jabo-only raid; let alone the ol tried and true 2 plane sneak grab.

A JABO-only strike would necessarily contain about 5-6 fighters and 1 goon minimum to assure VH and FH's going down; assume 1/2 of that force is destroyed while obtaining the initial objective.. closing the VH, the FH and dealing with acks. Now, two or three fighters remain.. assuming the enemy got a few osties out and managed to up a couple of fighters, it's looking very grim indeed for the attackers. A 50% or better casualty rate; and more of the enemy close by than friendlies.

What about the goon(s)?? Will the remaining attack group have sufficient e and altitude to protect it? And kill the remining field defenders?

We've both seen and done a buncha succesful and less than succesful JABO only raids.. They fail most often not due to lack of skill or tenacity of the attackers part.. rather it's the defenders close proximity to additional assets (refuel/rearm pads) and quicky mounting numbers if any single element in the raid misses his target in the first few moments of the attack.

With the combined rescorces of both the med alt buffs and the JABO's, each employed to it's strengths, the field is completly closed down in the least amount of time for the lowest losses to the attackers.

Scenario.. FAST ATTACK group ups.. enemy sees the jump on the bar graph and sounds the alarm. Defenders scramble. The JABO's heading directly to the field and having a 1-3 minute jump on the defenders are there with more alt. 1/2 of them discard the ords and begin working down the defending fighters. Not many; if any will be above you on your arrival so the JABO team holds the alt and numbers edge and clears the 8-12k airspace for the buffs comming in behind.

More defenders scramble; osties begin to leak out. Not all of the enemy is in the air here.. but the numbers are increasing as enemy downed in other locations around the map begin to up for defense. Assume 5 defending fighters; 5 osties out. Buffs arrive. VH and FH down in first pass. Acks all down by second pass along with local dar and BH's.

The 5 defending fighters are not concerned with the JABO's anymore.. they want the buffs and failing that; they are looking for the goons. Since the buffs are above the JABO's at this point, they spread out low and fast on a reciprocial course, backtracking the attack; looking for the goons.... and now these guys are easy meat for the 'empty' JABO's.. 1/2 go in to get the goon hunters; the other half work on the osties.

Time elapsed.. less than 5 minutes since the first egg fell; few if any JABO's are lost yet; all enemy rescorces are down AND THE JABO'S NOW CONTROL THE AIRSPACE OVER THE FIELD!

Osties tend to roll to a postion then freeze to increase fire accuracy.. and those buffs overhead still have eggs... and so do 1/2 the fighters. The ostie numbers are worn down.. cleared; goons are called in...

Add in a 5 plane pre-strike light fighter sweep and the FAST ATTACK has an even larger edge over the JABO only strike. Still the key to success in FAST ATTACK remains the JABO group.. just as it does in JABO only. The diffrence is in the tasking of the heavy fighters. They HAVE to stick to the profile and let the buffs work...

It's a teamwork issue mostly; but if the JABO's know what they are responsible for, and fly the profile, the system does work, and work better against a contested field than JABO only.

My fingers hurt. Gonna go kill something in the main. If we have radar. If we have any fields left..  

Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" <<<< Recruiting!


 

[Dinger]

Hhehe. Mors ab alto and all that.  Your biggest problem Hang is going to be personnel.
Some declassified bits of ]-[onker's doctrine:
The goon pilot is not an afterthought.  Your best pilot needs to be in the goon.  Everybody else has a primary job of protecting the goon, largely by not drawing any cons to it.
In WB, 925 CABS ops are not regularly advertised on the country channel, but not because we don't like outsiders.  Rather, the "typical assault" mentality is insuperable.  In any case, you only need a core of disciplined warriors to meet your objectives; add on one or two reasonably disciplined newbies, and you're in business.

Finally, I'll leave you with the conclusion of an essay by George Haering, then head of the STrike Warfare Branch within the Cguef if Naval Ops' Systems ANalysis Division, on "How Tactical Air Works": 5 generalizations applicable from WWI to AH:

The tactical offense is easier and more effective than the tactical defense.
The offense must attack an important target system and pulverize it.
The offensive planning should not rely heavily on new weapons as sources of revolutionary effectiveness to make the attack overwhelming.
Double and triple check your intelligence. Don't take anything for granted.
If you want an initial learning period, or have inadequate force, don't alert the enemy by attacking a fragment of a decisive target system.

If you ever come over to knits give me a call.

[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 01-23-2001).]

[Nash]

Ok, given the tactic of numerical superiority in spite of speed and effeciency, here's what I would suggest...

The Osty problem can be completely avoided if you just give up 2 JABO fighters to pre-strike before the main group even launches.

2 hvy fighters don't attract a whole lot of attention, especially when approaching the field from diferent locations. Fighter 1 dives on VH, dropping 2 1ks. Second fighter follows him down dropping a 3rd. VH is done. I've rarely seen an Osty spawn before the VH is hit like this. The 2nd Fighter immels and drops his final egg on dar (or quick guns burst does the job also).

Now you've got a situation where their VH is down and their lights are out. Sure, they may see a green bar, but psychologically, this is way less of a beacon to most of the MA'ers who equate actual dots with 'lotsa things to kill' and will come running to defend.

It seems most folks have forgotten how important taking out dar is. I posit that it's *just* as important a target as the VH... and exactly the same deal breaker that it was in Beta, if left standing.

Anyways, the VH and dar will be out for more than enough time it takes to bring the main group in to do the leveling. Plus you've got 2 AC in a fighter role to hassle the uppers and keep them from attaining an altitude that could threaten the buffs.

Hang - I would seriously consider this... Once you've picked a target, but before you start writing the mission, request this profile. Ask it of people whom you know can handle it and won't get distracted. When the mission is ready to roll - you'll have a much easier time of things.

Also... these 2 Jabos must take care not to hit any ack. Not knowing how long ack have been down, or having them start to respawn sporadically (say, when yer goon is dropping), is a real problem. All ack must be downed at the same time.

Having people signed up 'in the buff flight' or 'in the JABO flight' etc. is not enough. During your commute, talk to each guy personally and outline his specific target (ie. left side of field ack) as well as his contingency plans or secondary target. Make them responsible for something *in particular*. This will avoid redundancy, but more importantly - it will make them *responsible* for some specific goal. You'll get alot more discipline and adherence to the mission this way. Additionally - take pains to be in constant contact with your Goons and thier exact whereabouts.

Another thing I'll add is that once you've pretty much decided on a target, take a close look at the closest field. In alot of cases, this will be a better choice. Sometimes easier, and allowing you to capture your initial pick with much more authority.

[Moose1]

Hangtime sez:
 

BBGunn, I've tried using escorts for the goons and have had poor success. From my own experience in a P51.. if i see a goon; it's dead. No escort can stop me.. it's just a matter of getting down to him.

Boy you aren't kidding.  A few weeks back somebody (hey, I forget which country, you non-rooks are just all nice red targets to me  ) was making a massive attack on one of our ports, I think P42.  In the middle of it, with me in a mere Spitfire V, I dove into the middle of 12+ enema and gunned down three C-47s in 30 seconds before they got me--the last C-47 died to nothing but my .303s.  I'm not bragging on my skill here, I'm not that good, I'm just agreeing with Hang that you could put escorts all over, around, above, below, and beside a C-47, and one guy with 10,000 feet of altitude to convert to airspeed, and a good shooting eye, is still gonna nail it every time.

   If you know what you're doing you can use the "MA mentality" against people to get good results.  Take tonight.  There I was, toodling along south of 40 in my trusty P-47D-30, catching up to a Rook buff strike that was in the midst of circling to reform their formation before plodding on to blast 21.  I was at about 18k, when I looked off my left wing and saw two enemy F6Fs at about 22k, moving in toward the buffs.

   I dropped my tanks and slid in behind the lead F6F, but he had at least 50 knots on me and I could get no closer than 700 yards, and just scattered a few hundreds rounds of caliber .50 in his general direction as the range re-opened.  Meanwhile, his wingman was under 1000 yards behind me and closing.  Seeing no alternative, I started a turning dive out, which turned into a full-blown patented Thunderbolt plummet when I realized just how fast the other guy in the Kitty was going.  I had no shot at the lead F6F, and I wasn't gonna sit there and let his wingman get an easy kill.

But fortunately for me, the guy in the lead F6F broke low and came after *me*.  As did his wingman, who closed to within 600 yards in the dive.  (As an aside, my God, can those Hellcats dive.  550 mph indicated on the pullout and the wingman stayed right with me.  He did good to keep the wings on it.)  So both Hellcats chased me, figuring they could get an easy kill.  Meanwhile...several Rook buffs slammed 21 and we captured it about 10 minutes later.  And the best part was that once the Kitties broke off and were engaged by other Rooks, I wound up getting a kill on one of them.  

   Getting the kill was just a bonus.  I figured I did my job when I distracted those attackers away from the bombers.

Moose (fpmoose)
The Flying Pigs
OINK!  OINK!  TO WAR!!

[Hangtime]

Nash I agree 100% on all those points.. pre-raid Vh and dar shutdown can make the diffrence between a bitter fight and a clean sweep. Suprise; whenever possible should be sought and prized as a jewel beyond price. And hitting the field ajacent to the objective right on the money. Good idea the other night, we'll run that one again sometime. By a knats bellybutton we missed that one. A knats ass...  

Unfortunatly; the planner spits everything out at once... everything rolls at the same time, and the immediate solution is as you said.. detail the task to a skilled pair of JABO experten.. and send em out 10 min before the raid rolls. A perfect job fer the LW. Do we HAVE a knit LW?? damme...

What I'm working toward is a 'playbook' where all the bish squad leaders can work co-operativly on a mission objective.. not a single mission all squads are in. In other words; one squad handles the pre-raid VH and dar takedown at SEVERAL fields simultaneously with it's own planned mission; another squad launches the light fighter sweep on it's mission planner; a third does the JABO task and another does the buff and goon work. All know the others tasks and have their missions up and they share in the objective.

Baby steps at first tho.. each element has to know whats expected, it's tasks and stick to the target objectives and mission profile, thus we do these 'hammer strikes' as you so aptly put it. So we can all, via working the Mission together; try and build a bit of familiarization with the various tasks involved in a succesful organized attack. With that in mind, for now; all elements are on the same mission planner..

I'd like to get a consensus on what night most bish squads fly; and maybe have a RW symposium on using the mission planner. If we spent a half hour learning how to configure and set waypoints; loadouts; etc then all the squad leaders in bishland could and hopefully would contribute and co-operate on mission objectives. JCY19 (Airwolves) and myself have had some fun with this coperative mission setup already.. and it can only get better as the various groups get a feel for what has to happen, when, and where in order for it to work well.

Surprisingly, I rarely have trouble fillin the buff slots.. there's quite a few good buff pilots out there; and for these missions I'll usually take a goon or a buff myself to try and keep things organised. Stuff happens too fast in a fighter cocpit to type; observe and react to that bogie on my six. Seems I always die first too. that helps LOADS lemme tell yah..  

Normally the buffers know precisely what to hit and who's hitting what, (I do brief them directly) most of these guys have flown with me before and know the drill. They have their primary; secondary and after bombs out jobs; and go about 'em pretty damn good. Blowin the hell outta the fields major assets in a couple of minutes is NOT the problem... gettin the JABO fighters to hold up and cap till thats done IS.  

Tonight we had squad night; all of 1st/AG showed up and we went to the knit fleet several times; and sank the damn thing every time we came... great fun; and reassuring to all of us that the Big Bad Boat is no biggie to kill if 6 guys go in together.. we're still gettin used to each other and workin out the responsibilties and routines too.

Each and every FAST ATTACK Mission is a training mission.. we get better at 'em each time we run 'em. Soon, it'll be come automatic. A target will be specified; time given, and the troops will form up to do the jobs, and know what needs to be done from a quick look that the core mission laid out on the planner.

If anybodys intrested in a RW symposium on using the Mission Planner; let me know, we'll set up a good time and learn how to use the tool that can turn chaos into mayhem.  

Moose.. yah done good. An escorts only job is to drive or lure the fighters off the buff stream.. once the fighter is not a threat; he should break off his attack and rejoin the formation. All to often I find the entire escort package followig a smoking attacker down to the weeds... leaving the buff stream wide open and defenseless against the next attacker. Funny stuff.

It's that MA mentality again.. damme if it don't drive me up the wall..  sometimes. On the other hand sometimes it gets me laughin hystericly... like I said, yah see some pretty funny stuff on these missions.

Dingr.. yer post explains Funked's post.. and can now infer that somebodys been down this path I'm on before. Anyplace I can view this document? Sounds like it might help... 925th CABS hunh? Yup.. I flew with the Pale Horses, did 'scort work for u boys on occasion. <S!>

<S!> All thanks fer the input.

Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!

[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-24-2001).]

[Saintaw]

Hang, broke your stick as well ?  

Good post! If I might put a note :

It is still possible to fetch a field with JABO's Only (meaning without Buffs). We have done it on multiple occasions with the Knit Mob (Mag33 runs). The main reason was speed, a Buff will take too much time to climb to 10K (RE: acks safetry alt).

Have the light (eggless) fighters straffe the aaa's , the hvy ones on the Hangars (who then will straffe ressources, depending on future projects...). With a little timing...it can and has been done.

Cheers,


------------------
MASS/SAW
click  HERE for info on III./JG 5 Eismeer
"kindergarden must be closed... all those little girls running around screaming..."
 -Fd ski

[Hangtime]

I know Saw.. but; I've caught a few of those raids and stopped 'em cold on the capture with just 1 or two fighters.. I get to the goons.. Muahahhanaahaaa

On other occasions when yah came back in force w/ 10-12 fighters yah often get the takedown. It tends to get messy, tho.    <S!> You guys put up a good jabo raid.. when I see MAG in the buffer I know bish is losing fields again.

I KNOW JABO only works.. lordy; I've been to rook and knit fields that had 4 or 5 FDB's jaboing it fer awile.. lord o'mighty I couldn't launch a kite from those fields fer hours after we get em. Toatal wasteland. I find out where you MAG guys keep yer socks, and I'll ask the FDB's to drop on by to vist it.    

The only problem is JABO only attacks is that unless it's carefully co-ordinated, it results in fields where the assets are regenning sporadicly.. a goon gits it's troops fragged when an ack pops up.. the VH suddenly spewes hordes of osties; it gets real ugly and costly. Who wants to die 4 times tryin to goon; or get fragged by the same VH regen for the third time? FAST ATTACK! Is more efficent. Kill the place entire in 2-3 min. Snap it up; refuel; rearm and MOVE ON. There's plenty of JABO work still.. it's just a whole lot less 'messy'.

Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders"

[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-24-2001).]

[Voss]

Hang, you are talking on an open channel  

Voss 13th T.A.S.

[sshh]

If we just play the game then one pair of eyes in the tower and 1-2 fast diving planes around and ready to jump on the goons/troops can push "goons required" number to ~4. And usually there is enough time between "attack spotted" and "goon arrives" to grab ~10k from the nearest field. Especially if goons wait out of dot range.

I think with a descent gameplay there is no such thing as "perfect" attack or whatever. Either quite large superiority in numbers required (no need in good plan then :-) or there is some countermeasure to the plan.

Conclusion: bishops can not win and most time suck :-) But they know what can be done with numbers though and use it in some attacks :-)

PS Great writeup !
PPS I hope someone got a kill while Hangtime been writing this ? :-)

[Pongo]

I agree cave. A good B26 pilot is the answer. He can drop 4-5 ack in the time that half of your fighters can die trying to do the same thing(first pass). He has excellent observation ability to watch for hot cons. He can vulch he can draw incoming fighters away. Its almost like the B26 was meant for it.
The Goon has to be on the ball. And he has to be in voice coms.
The cap has to stay high as long as they can. No vulching for the top two fighters. They have to be ponys or something fast that can play position on the high cons inbound. Make them commit short of the field.
The goon has to pop up to drop from 800 and get low and get out of there. High goons draw attention to the drop.
I would say that most captures that have good fighter pilots fail because of goon skill or poor communication to the goon from the fighters.

[jarbo]

Hang,
   Your assessment of "overall" bish tactics is right on!  Lotta numbers and little tactics.  Another thing I've noticed is that as a whole, little attention is given to protecting crucial airfields, while a forward..mostly tactically useless airfield is contested over.

My squad is big into organized tactics.  We would be glad to join in these kind of OPS, while we are still bish.

Jarbo
OPS officer
The Buccaneers

[Nash]

 

"...as you said.. detail the task to a skilled pair of JABO experten.. and send em out 10 min before the raid rolls. A perfect job fer the LW."

Blasphemer!

 

[gatt]

The random factor plays a great role here. In the last days my squad spotted some big Bish raids inbound a Knight field.

Well, 4-5 aggressive defenders well positioned with voice comm can stop an 10-15+ a/c raid. We like to do it. We first search for bombers and C47s. Then we go for fighters.

In one of them, Hangtime and his B26 was my first kill  , followed by two sweeping Ponies (not very good at close dogfighting).

So, if a coordinated squad spots your raid your in danger. BTW, it was great fun. <S>!

   


[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 01-24-2001).]

[Nash]

Btw Hang... I like where yer going with this stuff.

And this type of thing beats the typical Uber-Chog HO-Dweeb whiney snivveling flame fest hands down.

It's crazy how much we *don't* discuss tactics/strat on this board, really. I dunno why that is.