Excessive trim

[Tigger]

OK, I don't know if this is just me or if others are having similar problems.

I'm finding nearly impossible to fly a plane in AH as I'm constantly fighting my acft's (P51/ME109) left roll even after dialing in all possible trim. I find the plane will continue to roll with out constant stick input. This isn't true with elevator or rudder trim however.

And before someone tells me this is part of flying more realistic flying, it's not, I've spoken with a lot of pilots here at work (geeze couldn't swing a cat with hitting one here, private/commercial/ex-military) all have told me that once trim is set it's set until you change someting, like airspeed. That's easy enough for any non pilot programmer type to understand.

This isn't true for me in WB and I've been doing that program since early beta so I'm not a novice either.

I'm running AH on a Micron 500mHz P3, 256 ram, Diamond viper 16 meg viedo card, Sound blaster, TM rudder pedals and JS. Stick and rudders are running through sound card. DX7 is in there somewhere also.

I've done numerous setups on the stick with both AH's setup as well as Win98's Game Controller panel. Nothing helps.

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//=^.^=\\
I'm surrounded by idgits and mooks!

[jedi]

Personally I think the trim moves a bit too slowly in the sim, but since in real life you'd be moving a wheel instead of a key or stick button, I guess it's a reasonable compromise.

Some of these planes didn't even have trim on all 3 axes.  Some didn't seem to even need it apparently, and could be flown through much of their envelopes with only minor adjustments.

In general, once you trim the plane (try using the autopilot to trim it quickly, and then make small manual changes from there) it SHOULD stay trimmed fairly well, but not perfectly, but ONLY if you do not change your airspeed.  How many of us fly around in the arena at CONSTANT airspeed, within, say, 5 mph of the target speed.  Get outside that tolerance, and you'll need to retrim.

In a real plane that's not on autopilot, you're trimming a lot until you get it trimmed out, then a little every so often to keep it there.

This would work pretty well in AH if they would up the trim rates slightly, but IMO that wouldn't match a real piston-driven plane very well.  Stick-mounted trim is a modern phenomenon, and wheel-mounted trim takes a lot of practice to master IMO.

--jedi

[funked]

Did the Me 109 even have aileron or rudder trim in real life?

I don't know which pilots you talked to, but I've read dozens of accounts of WW2 pilots where they say they had to use two feet on the rudder just to fly straight in a dive, or they had to hold a lot of aileron, or the elevator required a lot of pressure.  Me 109, P-40, F6F, P-38, you name it...

Planes like the Fw 190 and the F4U seemed to be immune from this stuff, but they were the exception.

Remember with the Me 109 you are talking about a 1935 airframe with a 1942 engine.  It's like dropping a 289 V-8 into a Model T.  You can't expect it to handle too well.

[chisel]

They started installing trim controls on all 3 axis with the G-10 but I've seen it described as "often incomplete"

Wheres Ik and Kats?

[juzz]

AFAIK:

The Spitfire's aileron trim was set at the factory by bending the metal ailerons slightly. Pilot controlled elevator and rudder trim tabs.

The Bf109 didn't have any sort of rudder trim until the late G models. (U2/U4 wooden tail?) Fixed tabs for aileron trim, pilot adjusted elevator trim. (The inner of the two wheels on the cockpit port wall, outer is flaps wheel?)

[Tigger]

Uhhhhh guys/gals I'm not worried whether or not the ME109/Spit or other acft were equipped with trim.  

AH allows for trimming and that's what I asking about. Yes I can use auto trim but be aware that once you release auto you are back to the parameters that are built into the program and then you have to retrim.

What I was asking is why it has to be so severe in the game? I don't think it's necessary to have to input full left aileron trim in an attempt to keep a plane level.

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//=^.^=\\
I'm surrounded by idgits and mooks!

[hitech]

First the trim gauges do not represent % of control surface deflection,they represent the % of trim which is less than you can deflect the control surfaces with the stick. Normaly we set these at 20 to 30 % of stick movement.

Some of the problems you are having with trim on planes other than the p51 are simply our setup problems/bugs. If you wish to see how all planes are supposed to work test with the p51.

If you trim to level flight and let it settle for about 10 secs you should be able to take the trim off with out any noticable effects. I.E. the plane should maintain being level with only a very slight drift over time if the plane is still changing speed.

If after you come off the level trim by using the x key and your plane instantly moves its a joystick calibration problem.

HiTech

[Tigger]

Thanks Hitec for the answer, I was pretty sure the guages represented trim deflection and that was never a question in my mind (since they changed when new trim was input   ).

I'll give the 51 another shot, had gotten frustrated with it with the first beta release and hadn't tried it since the update had come out (primarily as my oldest is in marching band, or should I say the family is in marching band and free time is limited).

Looks like I need to do some more off line work with the auto settings and my joystick can't honestly say I've ever left any auto trim on for my than 10 seconds, I generally try to trim myself. Old WB habit.

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//=^.^=\\
I'm surrounded by idgits and mooks!

[funked]

Tigger - you are the one who brought up real planes and their trim characteristics.  The point we were trying to make is that your discussions with real pilots mean squat if they didn't fly the planes in AH.

[Toad]

Trim is an interesting subject in AH.

Clearly, you maneuver much better here in an "in trim" condition. The plane flies much more controlably and crisply.

However, I think "trim effect" (if you will) is a bit overmodeled. Why?

Trim tabs are almost always a _fraction_ of the size of the control surface they trim. Trim is used primarily to relieve stick pressures, not to fly the airplane. (Yeah, you can fly with trim, obviously..but it's not the primary flight control).

What I'm saying is that you should be able to fly the airplane almost to the edges of a particular flight control's envelope even if that particular flight control is fully mis-trimmed.

Example, you can get most of the "up" authority out of your elevator even with the trim tab trimmed full "down". This is because the tab surface area is significantly smaller than the elevator's surface area. It would be a harder pull, of course. (Now we're into the pilot's strength and conditioning <G> )

Yes, you'd get more "up" if you trimmed correctly but not 75% or 50% more, just "some". And this advantage would only be that small amount of force the tab can generate in additon to "full aft" on the elevator.

If you never hit "full aft" the tab + elevator force combo wouldn't be generating more force than the elevator could alone with neutral trim because more elevator is still available.

So, except at the stops, you probably have almost all your elevator authority even when mistrimmed.

In the game, flying the 51, even a slight mistrim condition dramatically affects your performance. Even for 10-15 knot airspeed changes, performance degrades significantly.

This does add complexity to the game..and that's not bad...it can be viewed as a "difficulty level" rather than the infamous "realism".

But in the "normal" speed ranges of most aircraft here, it probably wouldn't be quite as critical as it appears to be in aircraft performance, given the size of trim tabs and their original intended use....if we're going to invoke "realism".

...and I'm not saying we should _or_ shouldn't invoke that troublesome word.

[Toad]

And, just playing around with trim in the
51, I let it run level on A/P at 250KTS at 5K for a few minutes, till everything settled down.

Took off the A/P, it flew basically straight and level at 250 kts...great!

Then I gave it one fast tap on the "nose up" trim key.

ZOOM! Goes right into a 2000 FPM ROC!

Wow! That's _some_ trim tab!!

This was repeatable as well. It'll do the same thing with nose down trim. So, this must be how it's going to be. I don't know how many units of trim we are modeling (I assume full range) nor how many units (turns of the wheel) one tap equals.

I don't really have a problem with it. Mapped trim to my throttle keys and use it as necessary. Beats reaching to the side of the cockpit and spinning a wheel while dogfighting.

I die anyway, tho <g>.

[Minotaur]

I am not a fan of the way trim is modeled.  I would rather fly and fight, than trim and trim.

IMO --> Trim Trim Trim does not equal Real Real Real.

I have grown used to the trim model and I have adapted somewhat.  I guess I'm going fly anyway   .

One thing I have noticed, is that when you use Climb Trim (ALT X, I beleive) it wants to be at about 200 knots.  This is also a speed trim.  The downside to this is that it will put you into a crash dive to attain 200 knots.  Don't ever hit ALT X near the ground, below 200 knots.  Amen brother!

The topspeed for the B17 is pretty close to 200 knots.  So forget Climb Trim.  You got to fly the thing 100% of the time to get to any reasonble attack altitude, or just be an easy kill.

30 minutes of trimming / fighting the FM to 25k is really for Hardcore Simmers.  I'm guessing the B17 is yet unfinnished beta.

The B17 is just TOO LOUD.  I loved walking around in the B17, attention to detail is awesome.  The off harmonic engine sounds, really put you in the thing.

Haven't flown the Goony yet, don't ask me why, seems I should have by now.  haha

Mino

[IceNine]

Minotaur -

The command ".speed ###" typed in your radio buffer sets your auto climb speed.

150 is nice for the B17.

[214CaveJ]

I've flown the 17 more than any other bird in AH, and I use auto-angle all the time.  I get the heading I want and the ROC I want and thumb the button I setup as shift+x and it holds right where I want it, usually climbing at about 155mph =)

[SixGun]

I flew the 109 all last night (my first online game in 5 years)I found the trim behavior of the gustav excellent.
I really like that you can feel when the plane is in a good maneuvering band. I found that when I managed to stumble across one of these bands I could immediately tell and then maneuver to stay in the band until I could execute a good attack. Now I need rudder pedals.