Padlock

[tomldr]

I have appreciated reading the views of others on the use of padlock.  I still confess to finding it hard to understand why padlock is loathed by so many.  I agree that if it cheats by not having the proper human limits, then it is not something for hardcore players.

As for a padlock not simulating in "any way" what a human pilot does in tracking a bogey, I find that a wee bit of an overstatement..    Clearly, a human pilot can and does track his target quite well and with a singular focus.  I agree that he also scans the sky for others, but the human pilot does track a single target and focus on it to line up for his kill shot.  

Thanks for the continued discussion,

Tom

[This message has been edited by tomldr (edited 10-22-1999).]

[phaetn]

Quite true Tomldr.

However, we are limited in what can be represented considering we are using a computer monitor.  A human being can both move eyeballs and neck independently; a pilot can move his head while the rest of his body remains in a relatively static position and hence know the relative heading of the plane relative to his view point.

Neither of these are possible in a sim.  Switching view is effectivly moving the head; there is no physical feedback regarding plane heading, although canopy markers can try and make up for this.

I personally find two things:
1. Switching views manually gives me a very good idea of relative plane heading since I am holding the view hat in position and works as a physical cue.
2. In terms of SA, it is absolutely imperative to know where to "look" for a bogey and how it relates to one's plane's position.  RL pilots inherently have this through physical feedback -- it is easy to track a target with subtle movements of the head, and it is easy to tell the heading of the plane.

Not using padlock forces the user to acquire the target.  Most experienced players rarely look "forward" but effectively keep the target in view... "lost sight, lose the fight" is an important maxim.  Padlock is a crutch to make up for poor SA and has other detrimental effects like encouraging target fixation.

Learn the view system, love it, and use it.  You'll never go back.  

Cheers,

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phaetnAT
Aces High Alpha Tester

[Stiglr]

Padlock users are LAZY.

Get your OWN friggin' views!!!

[juzz]

Just wait for VR headsets with full peripheral display, and head movement tied into the game's display... then you won't need a keypad/hat view system, or padlock  

[Rojo]

We've had this discussion before, both here and on AGW.  Like Tomldr, I don't understand the general vehemence among some folks that this suggestion elicits.  The real question is, would you be opposed to the inclusion of a P/L view option if:

1) It was completely at your discretion as to whether you yourself use it;

and

2) Could be implemented in such a way as to conform to the actual limitations of a person in the cockpit, i.e. P/L broken if something obstructs the line-o-sight, or if the person looks away from the P/L view for more than a few seconds.

If you're not being forced to use it, and if it doesn't give an unfair advantage to the guy who uses it, why do you oppose it?  

I'm quite comfortable with the view systems in both WB and AH, but I'd still like the option of a P/L view.  I certainly wouldn't use it in every situation, but I can also certainly invision a time and place for it. Many of you claim that those who have gained proficient use of P/L in other sims do so because of laziness or inability to master static view keys.  I submit that the opposite could be said. In other words, if you don't use P/L, it's because you won't take the time to learn it's unique uses. Proficient use of P/L requires effort.  SA is NOT just knowing where the current target is, and keeping it in view.  You have to know when to give up the padlock and when to switch the target being padlocked.

In many ways, using a P/L in AH such as I desribe above is actually harder than using static view keys.  It IS easy to loose SA on the surrounding engagement environment, and all to easy to forget where the ground is, or how severe you AOA.  But it rewards those who become comfortable with it.

A R/L pilot tracks a target with his eyes by turning his head and eyes, and he does it without thinking.  When he glances away for a moment to check instruments or his six, the muscles in his neck and torso "remember" where the target was a moment ago, and so can quickly re-acquire the target. If he looks away too long, or the target goes behind an obstuction, he must THINK about where to look, where the target might have gone.  This mimicks quite nicely what you would have to do if you had P/L in a sim. The static view keys help you locate/re-locate a target, while P/L allows you to focus on it.

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Rojo (S-2, The Buccaneers)

[fats]

--- Rojo: ---
It IS easy to loose SA on the surrounding engagement environment, and all to easy to forget where the ground is, or how severe you AOA
--- end ---

Doh! Well that is _the_ point. Padlock doesn't give more SA, so why bother spending time implementing it?


//fats

[Rojo]

Fats:  Wrong! I said it CAN result in loss of SA, but only if used improperly.  If you stay in P/L view, it's easy to kiss the ground or loose your orientation with it; but the same thing can happen if you're using static views.  The trade off is P/L makes it easier to track a target.  Instead of using those static views to track that target, you use them to track the overall situation.  Without P/L, you have to use the static views for both.

Let me ask you this, my friend: while engaged with a boogie, do you spend more time looking at the target, or looking somewhere else?  Personally, my answer is the former. P/L would just spare my poor aching thumb some strain (not to mention wear and tear on my 4-way hat switch  ). I'd only use the hat to "glance" at things, while my P/L view would do the "staring." for me.  So P/L WILL improve SA, if you use it and don't abuse it.

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Rojo (S-2, The Buccaneers)

[fats]

Rojo:

The way I understand you would like padlock to work:

1. press key XYZ and it locks on closest enemy ( ? ) or some other way of deciding on who to lock

2. press hat switch to get rear view to check six

3. release hat switch and pad lock goes straight for the plane you locked on in step 1


If you scan the skies, other direction than your intended target, you still have to re-accuire him in RL. No device is gonna lock back in on him automagically. Sure you'll have a hunch that he'll be in direction X, but that's what you get with what we have right now as well.

How are you gonna lose _anyone_ behind canopy railings for example? If the pad lock disengages every time someone goes behind them then it's even more useless than I first thought it would be. Will pad lock lose enemy con cause the terrain behind it blends with it under 5Gs and at the edges of the tunnel vision? How do you determine the %of these things happening? Is the % equal for all pilots? Whops where did the human factor go? Well back to off-line sims I guess against AI drones...


//fats

[miko2d]

 I was voting against the padlock, but only because I thought that it was not that important and dod not want HTC creu wasting time on it.
 I was sure that it is possible with clever programming to make it realistic and avoid all the problems mentioned by other detractors:
  - while in padlock, a press on a view button brings you to that view, once you release you go back to padlock, provided you do it within 3 seconds. Enough to do a quick scan, but prevents cheating.
  - padlock is lost if the plane disappears from view for more then 1 second - be it terrain, canopy railings, clouds or anything else.

 The one crucial reason I finally saw why padlock should not be implemented is the one mentioned by fats:

 A pilot can use the camuflage paint of his plane and the terrain to became almost invisible in certain conditions, unless the enemy is real close. Some people would be able to track/reaquire such a target better or worse depending on their skill and experience. The padlock will negate that. Once you lock on something while he is siluetted against a clear sky, it will still keep locked even if the guy dives to the ground. So it becomes a radar with look-down capability unmatched by even modern doppler radars.
 Making the padlock lose lock in such conditions will not work. For some it will happen while they can still see the target, for others it will still work when they do not see it well. The code will be very complex - a white plane (IJN) trailing white smoke against a cloud is less visible, but if the smoke is black it is more visible. Blue navy planes are hard to see against the sea, sometimes even against the sky, etc.
 There will always be people for whom it is too much while for others it will be not enough.

miko--

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 11-03-1999).]

[tomldr]

Hello again fellow pilots..

I'm kinda surprised about the latest argument that a pilot can lose targets and thus we shouldn't use padlock.  It seems silly to mention that since AH has this huge RED and GREEN lettering that tells me things like "P-51" and distance..  Lose someone because they can blend into the dirt?  How?  That would only be the case if AH had NO LABELS.  Is there an option for that?  As long as we have the label cheat and thus no realism .. I say let's give us pilots a padlock as well.  

Happy flying,

Tom

[miko2d]

tomldr:
 In WB there was one exeption to the icons rule - if you flew real low, less then 300 feet above ground, the icon did not show until very, very close.

 Many people used that to stage a wave-top bombing raid or Jabo strike. There was a fair tradeoff - if somebody did detect you (people running 2D had advantage here), you had very few chances to survive.

miko--

[Bullethead]

Padlocks again....

Yup, for most people, using a padlock in a multi-bogey situation isn't as good for SA as using views.

HOWEVER, some folks are handicapped. I have a friend who can't use but 1 arm, and not all the fingers on that hand.  He flies quite well but he can't use his thumb so good.  So he has real problems with hat-based views.  A padlock would be a big SA improvement for him.

For that reason, I'd like to see a padlock OPTION in AH.  It would allow handicapped guys to participate more than they can now, which would be a good thing for all of us.

-Bullethead <CAF>