Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.

[Anaxogoras]

After all these posts and different points I'd like to say...

Bnz is right that heavy bombers are overpowering tactical weapons in the game.  That said, the others are probably right that you wouldn't see heavy bombers if things were otherwise.

It would make me happy if...

1.  Formations were disabled for scenarios and FSO's.  With enough people, drones are unnecessary.  10 bomber pilots all using the n key to fire the guns of 30 buffs is too much.

2.  Fix the warps.

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Something no one has pointed out:  Buff-hunting would be more fruitful if there were no 2x fuel burn multiplier.  As things are, climbing up to 20k+ to search for bombers leaves you little fuel in a lot of the good bomber killing aircraft, when patience counts for everything.

[715]

I originally agreed with the OP as I am always shot down instantly by buffs and when I see others attack them they tend to fail as well.  One poster said the LW had a 3:1 kill ratio against US buffs so I checked AH scores.  Here's some representative ratios of kills vs killed when going against B17Gs: FW190A8 = 3.0, Me109G-14 = 2.2, P51D = 1.9, Spit IX = 1.6, P38J = 4.0, F4U1C = 3.9, Me262 = 8.4 (as you might expect).  So, doesn't seem too far from reality.  I don't like that answer, but that's the data.

I do think, however, that bombing is way, way too easy.  I never fly buffs.. i.e. absolutely never.  But I took up some Lancs once, read the online directions for the first time while in the air, and proceeded to destroy all my targets perfectly.  That's just too accurate and too easy.

[BnZ]

A single fighter can easily "suicide 6" into a single buff, guns blazing. Bombers are way too vulnerable with no formations, which is why they were added to the game.

Which is why when I thought about, I realized no formation was too extreme a step, and advocated instead eliminating the ability to shoot with all guns from all 3 buffs in the formation.

[BnZ]

 "By your own admission, you only want bombers to be able to drop their bombs 50% of the time or less.  What fun would it be for someone who wants to shoot planes down if he only managed to find a plane to shoot at less than 50% of the time?  Sounds boring to me.  If someone wants to blow stuff up, but only gets to do so less than 50% of the time, it would be equally boring / pointless."

What do you mean? The average k/d ratio in fighter is what, 1? Less? Presumably, if they don't get intercepted, they get to blow something up, and if they do get intercepted, they see action in the form of getting to shoot at fighter planes. So I don't really see what the objection is.

[BnZ]

Bombers are probably the easiest things to shoot down other than a C47.  I'm really amazed that someone is asking that the bomber formations be perked or even think a formation is nearly undefeatable.  Every bomber in this game has a very exposed weakness, attacks from above at a 45 degree angle dive aiming for the wing root or forward area (cockpit), attacks like this will usually result in a bomber going down on each pass.  

If you have troubles, I will be more than happy to teach you how to properly attack bombers.

ack-ack

I disagree. In my experience, the average MA fighter pilot is less dangerous mano-a-mano than the average MA buff gunner. 

I know the "right" way to attack buffs, learned it from Skatsr a long time ago for Pete's sake, the problem being there is usually not time to set up multiple passes of the proper sort to prevent bombs reaching target unless you are already at higher alt than the buffs in a relatively fast plane. And even with the best setup, a good gunner still tends to kill you before you get all his planes.

[Phil]

I will admit that hunting a formation of buffs and killing them is a difficult proposition. However with patience and practice it is not that hard to defeat them. I am not neither practiced enough nor patient enough to do it, but I know one that is.

Dead on comment !
I'm an average pilot and only fly spitfires(mid-war). ALL buffs are EASY targets when using "patience" and proper tactic ! I don't care how good of a gunner, when I dive from 12high at 400-450mph, I rarely get pinged...
I've seen other pilots use the same tactic and I'm a fair gunner and can't get a shot at the plane bouncing me with that tactic 

As others have mentioned, check around and ask for help and practice.
The only time where I was shot hard is when more than 1 formation is flying together.
When you have experience pilots flying in tight formation of bombers, ya better have the SPEED to get in and out because you will be heading home with no paint scheme on your kite

You have some good points about bombing the crap out of hangers when they were used for other targets in WWII

Phil /OPP7755

[BnZ]

You are making the presupposition of time enough to 1. Get in position well above the buffs, 2. Make a front-quarter attack, which will put a large degree of horizontal separation between you and the buffs after the pass, and then get ahead of the buffs again for another such pass two more times before they reach their target.

Dead on comment !
I'm an average pilot and only fly spitfires(mid-war). ALL buffs are EASY targets when using "patience" and proper tactic ! I don't care how good of a gunner, when I dive from 12high at 400-450mph, I rarely get pinged...
I've seen other pilots use the same tactic and I'm a fair gunner and can't get a shot at the plane bouncing me with that tactic 

As others have mentioned, check around and ask for help and practice.
The only time where I was shot hard is when more than 1 formation is flying together.
When you have experience pilots flying in tight formation of bombers, ya better have the SPEED to get in and out because you will be heading home with no paint scheme on your kite

You have some good points about bombing the crap out of hangers when they were used for other targets in WWII

Phil /OPP7755

[Phil]

Again a key factor is "patience" or like you're saying "time"
1. Proper position before the initial pass. (average 2.5 above and in front of buffs)
With the above alt, you will dive from 12high and with a 2-3sec well placed, the buff will blow or break. With that speed(350-450mph) you will be in position for a second pass in seconds !
I've destroyed buff formations with SpitV and still had cannon rounds left for a dog fight....
I'm just the average pilot and many are above me in skills. It can be done with minimum practice BnZ !

Salute Sir
Phil / 7755

[Chalenge]

Bomber formations are really really really easy to shoot down and shooting them down will improve your hit percentage since they are such big targets its hard to miss them. Sorry BNZ but I cant agree with anything you have to say on this one since I escort bombers every time I am online and fly them even up to 30k altitude and I see how easy they are shot down ALL THE TIME. AHII already has so many concessions to make things easy for finding fights and the maps we have are so big its hard to agree with you at all. I am glad that our efforts at shutting down hangars is finally being noticed.  

[SD67]

The reason the hangars are getting dropped is fuel can no longer be porked.
If fuel could be porked back to 25% you will find a return to attack style of play utilising the fighter/bombers more.
It really only limits the amount of time you can be up in defence, if you want more come from the next base, and you will probably have an alt advantage then . If you're upping an La7 from a field under heavy attack you'll likely not use 25% of your fuel anyway.

[BnZ]

Bomber formations are really really really easy to shoot down and shooting them down will improve your hit percentage since they are such big targets its hard to miss them. Sorry BNZ but I cant agree with anything you have to say on this one since I escort bombers every time I am online and fly them even up to 30k altitude and I see how easy they are shot down ALL THE TIME. AHII already has so many concessions to make things easy for finding fights and the maps we have are so big its hard to agree with you at all. I am glad that our efforts at shutting down hangars is finally being noticed.  

I can only say that even using the "perfect" setup with all the time in the world I still RTB a plane too damaged to go play with fighters after I "do my duty" on Buffs all too often, and my experiences are far from unique.

[Chalenge]

I will remind you that I have said before that nine out of ten times when I attack bombers they never hit me. If you attack properly they have a very narrow window of opportunity to shoot at you and they must have perfect lead to hit you at all. When attacking bombers properly it doesnt matter if they have radar directed gun fire they just dont have a chance.

[BnZ]

The poster you speak of wrote "Even after the USAAF started escorting the bombers all the way the Luftwaffe shot down three bombers for every fighter they lost."

IOW, the figure includes interceptors shot down by escorts. Surely this means the k/d ratio of the interceptors against the bombers themselves would be much higher. Whereas the figures you reflected interceptors killed by bombers alone.

I originally agreed with the OP as I am always shot down instantly by buffs and when I see others attack them they tend to fail as well.  One poster said the LW had a 3:1 kill ratio against US buffs so I checked AH scores.  Here's some representative ratios of kills vs killed when going against B17Gs: FW190A8 = 3.0, Me109G-14 = 2.2, P51D = 1.9, Spit IX = 1.6, P38J = 4.0, F4U1C = 3.9, Me262 = 8.4 (as you might expect).  So, doesn't seem too far from reality.  I don't like that answer, but that's the data.

I do think, however, that bombing is way, way too easy.  I never fly buffs.. i.e. absolutely never.  But I took up some Lancs once, read the online directions for the first time while in the air, and proceeded to destroy all my targets perfectly.  That's just too accurate and too easy.

[BnZ]

I will remind you that I have said before that nine out of ten times when I attack bombers they never hit me. If you attack properly they have a very narrow window of opportunity to shoot at you and they must have perfect lead to hit you at all. When attacking bombers properly it doesnt matter if they have radar directed gun fire they just dont have a chance.

If the speed and angle is giving the gunners a short, low% firing window, it is also giving YOU a short, low% firing window.

[CAP1]

Ju-88s are of course in a whole different league than the "big 3" of LW MA buffs.

And I strongly suspect that if somehow you had 18 individuals in your buff formation manning every position, they would not be as deadly as a good individual gunner firing those 18 linked guns on single fighters.

you are exactly right sir. like i said...although it would hurt me too, as my gunnery sucks, i do believe that the buffs ARE unrealisticly hard to kill.
 since everyone likes comparing to the real life equilivent, then consider this.
 you're attacking ju88's from the dead six. there are only 3 of them. in rl, there is no place that the dorsal AND the ventral guns could fire on you, along with both from the other two ships.

 same with lancs. dead six approach. you've got the tail turrets, AND top turrets firing on you at one point or another.....from ALL three ships. with individually manned guns, it would be much easier to kill buffs, as it was in rl. take gunners with you, and if you cannot man all the positions, he can jump from gun to gun as you can........