HiTech no likes ponys?

[BnZ]

Granted I don't fly it all that much, but it sure seems to fly like I see it described by the guys who flew it in combat.

The guys who flew it and the guys who fought it thought it was a decided step-up in maneuverability from the P-47s they had flown/fought before. In AHII it is a step-down.

It was never meant to be a Spitfire.  It's range and all the things it could do well made it what it was. 

Who in this thread has made the assertion that it should turn better than the Spitfire? I've never heard another person claim the Mustang should out-turn the Spit, period. The History Channel doesn't even claim that. 

[thrila]

I hope we can all agree that there is conflicting data regarding ancedotal data and performance from 2 different sources can be significantly different too.  I can't count how many times i've seen a quote from a pilot "no fighter can roll with X plane"

Anyway, I just looked at gonzo's sight and the p47D-11 doesn't turn significantly better with no flaps with turning circles listed as 757 to 777 a negligble difference in combat, the D25 and d40 turn marginally worse than the 51D.  There's a p51vs p47 tactical trials on spitfireperformance.com somewhere and it concludes the turning circles are similar- but i wouldn't be surprised if data could be found contradicting it either way.

With flaps the jug beats the 51 hands down it seems- is that correct? i've no idea personally, the p51's flaps could be inefficient for all i know. 

Regardless, i pray someone stakes hitech through the heart at the con while he is passed ou...errr sleeping. No more blood sucking for him

[Guppy35]

The guys who flew it and the guys who fought it thought it was a decided step-up in maneuverability from the P-47s they had flown/fought before. In AHII it is a step-down.


Who in this thread has made the assertion that it should turn better than the Spitfire? I've never heard another person claim the Mustang should out-turn the Spit, period. The History Channel doesn't even claim that. 

My point being, that it's not meant to be a pure TnB bird.  It does it well however.  Some folks in D-11 Jugs or any Jug can do that too.  Not everyone.

I still don't get what folks think it isn't doing that it should.

[BnZ]

I still don't get what folks think it isn't doing that it should.

Really? You missed the 387 times in this thread that I mentioned the Pony doesn't turn as well as aircraft that have a significantly higher wing-loading?

If the Pony turned at least as well as the D-11, would make a big difference.

Oh, btw, here is an interesting comparison.

An F4U-1A at 50% fuel weighs 11,819 lbs. It has a wing area of 314 square feet. This gives it a wing-loading of 37.6 lbs. So its wing-loading is lighter than that of the P-51D's by approximately the same margin as we found in the P-51D/P-47D-11 comparison. I don't know precisely what the rated WEP power on the F4U-1A's R-2800 is, but considering the AHII P-51D accelerates better, I'm guessing the horsepower/weight is better for the 'Stang. Leaving the F4Us very effective flaps out of the equation, according to DokGonzos it still betters the P-51D's no-flaps radius.

There is a reason I specifically mention the Corsair in this comparison. Anyone who can guess it (besides Widewing) gets the No-Prize.

[Guppy35]

Really? You missed the 387 times in this thread that I mentioned the Pony doesn't turn as well as aircraft that have a significantly higher wing-loading?

If the Pony turned at least as well as the D-11, would make a big difference.

What alt, what speed, what fuel load, etc.  I missed all that too.

But what the heck.  Go get em.  I'll be the first to admit I'm not a numbers junkie.  It's purely the 'feel' and how it fits with my imagination.  The Mustang has done that in the game. 

Clearly it hasn't for you.  I hope you can find some satisfaction in the numbers.

[BnZ]

Thought of a way to get the point across.

Fly the P-51D in a t'n'b manner below 300mph, then try the D-11. The difference in handling is like the difference between the P-38J and P-38G. Only backwards, because the light plane is turning worse than the heavy plane in this case.

[SgtPappy]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet... but according to ADFU trials on www.spitfireperformance.com, the British testing (and the U.S. testing too , I think) states that the Mustang III (P-51B/C): 'Use of flaps on the Mustang does not appear to improve the turning circle.'

Additionally, the P-47 utilizes a slotted flap which really energizes the air as it enters the trailing edge of the flap, speeding up the air over the flap allowing for more lift. The P-51 has a regular plain flap which simply works like a conventional flap. It does create more lift but the air up top isnt really energized, just the air at the bottom slowed down.

In-game however, Widewing has shown some numbers of some suspicion. The P-51's turn rate gets horridly worse since the drag seems to increase to a point where the lift is negligible when considering how slow the plane turns. The turn rate would moreso be likely to stay the same as the drag increases proportionally to the lift. Or so goes my account of WW's theory.

It's not confirmed though.

[Chalenge]

I don't know precisely what the rated WEP power on the F4U-1A's R-2800 is, ...

R-2800-21W: 2,300 hp (1,700 kW) MSL SAP

[Anaxogoras]

Again, why the assumption that the P-51 model is wrong and the others are right?  The opposite explanation is equally good.

[BnZ]

Again, why the assumption that the P-51 model is wrong and the others are right?  The opposite explanation is equally good.

So everything else turns worse?

Anax, I knew I could count on you to look at the problem exactly bass-ackwards. 

[dedalos]

In AHII the P-51 is out-turned by an aircraft that is decidedly inferior in wing-loading and also inferior in horsepower, in both no-flaps and full-flaps configuration.

Tell you what, I don't even fly the p50run, but if you want, get a tiffi and try to out turn me in one.  Did you ever think it may be you and not the plane? 

P51 vs Spit9. Flat turn at the merge and watch the spit.  The goal is to make him go for the turn fight.  If he takes the bate, release a little pressure and push nose down a bit to maintain speed.  He will win the turn but get slow in the process.  Avoid the HO  and pull up and over.  The spit will be too slow to follow and either get roped if he tries or you will get a shot after you loop over.  Only other option for him will be to dive for speed but then you have the advantage.  So, my point is, what does turning have to do with winning a fight?  You just beat a better turning plane without even turning.  What do you people mean when you say out turn anyway?  I would bet 99% of the time you mean that you got killed 

[Grayeagle]

Well heck .. seems the video isnt posted anymore on the Damned.org webiste.

Sorry man .. will ask what they need to post it.
May as well post some of the artwork I did also, since +Mia's site went tits up.

I could prolly bring it to the Con if any interest in watchin it.
I pull horizontal at 250 indicated with the stick shaking, then pull a little more and she departs,
..you can watch the nose track around the horizon, it definitely aint no spitfire

Lee dumped 10 degrees of flaps on me while I held her at stick shake
and you can see the nose increase the speed she's tracking across the horizon dramatically.
THen he dumped 20 degrees ..and I could not pull hard enough fast enough
..LOL .. then he put flaps back up and we departed.

The interesting thing was .. I was expecting a full on snap opposite prop torque
... and
.. well it did
.. but
.. it was not anything wild or out of control
.. pushed right rudder, waited till ailerons were biting, leveled out.
In a right turn, she just comes out level.

In a left turn tho .. baby ..
..you get nearly inverted and lose altitude in a hurry while you push right rudder
and wait till she's flying again to ease her wings level and nose her back up.
I would *really* hate to have that happen just over the trees

-GE

[Chalenge]

Sounds like AH P51 to me.

[Urchin]

My 2 cents (as if they matter) -

The only thing that has never made sense to me is the way relative performance changes over the years.  The F4U didn't used to be a superplane.  The 190A-5 used to be able to turn with a P-47 (or just about, at any rate). 

One time I go away for a while and come back, and the damn 190 just won't turn any more. 

Then I find a thread about the P-51, and lo and behold both planes had thier flaps-down turn radii increased by 25%. 

Why? 

[bustr]

HiTech,

The P51H got into the Pacific theater at the wars end. Did enough numbers get to participate that you would consider releasing it into Aces High on a perked basis? From what I have read it will do everything you are being accused of not allowing the current P51D to do. I get the impression it is a Spit16 that raped a P51B and spawned a iligitiment hybred. If you do..... perk it equal to the F4U-4.

Thank you Sir......