P38 Spins... WTF?

[Dead Man Flying]

 

Originally posted by Tac:
Its supposed to be. And it is as long as that bs spin doesnt show up.

The thing is that the spin didn't show up despite dogfights that got as slow as 80mph at times.  Though the 38 stalled or refused to pull its nose up at times, I never once managed to spin it.  It always felt very stable to me.

Just out of curiousity, which stick setup do you use?  Are you sure it's not spiking on you and causing these spins?

 

Waiting for some explanation for this or some evidence that this did happen in the RL 38. The system is muting me for 10 minutes a lot lately. =P

Here's a nice link that demonstrates the properties of the 38 on a single engine.  No physics here, but it does seem a bit easier than AH suggests.  

 http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P38.html

-- Todd/DMF

[Tac]

Hehe, I know its not my stick, my old stick (dumped 2 months ago) was really spiky, this one is rock solid.

Plus ive seen other 38's go into that spin when im on their 6... its really awful, I can feel what the other player is going through (aka, "WTF???")

Ive spinned at 2k alt while going at 300 mph on a low G bank turn with no rudder, at 10k while at 110 mph, at 27k when initiating a split s while im 250 mph.. there seems to be no common factor here. Like I said, not been able to reproduce it at will, the damn thing just pops up.

[Tac]

<punt>

*spins the thread around*

<punt> <punt>

[MiG Eater]

I've seen a couple of anomolies with the P-38.  I almost always perform a carrier break pattern prior to landing.  The P-38 is the only airplane that wanders at high speed in the roll and yaw axis during the break.  This is not a complaint but an observation when comparing it to other planes in the AH set. I also posted single engine operation bugs at http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum6/HTML/002014.html    Using the procedure I describe there, it is possible to reduce the drag on the dead engine.

If spins are occurring during single engine flight then its likely some aggressive maneuvering is being attempted.  Rule #1 in single engine operation in any twin recip with wing mounted engines is not to turn or roll into the dead engine.  i.e., if the left engine is dead, do not roll or turn to the left.  This rule from my flight training can be applied here.  With the P-38 in AH, keep the speed at 200 mph or higher when during single engine operations to minimize the risk of a spin.  Use minimal control inputs, especially in pitch.  
If you are in a fight with a dead engine, trade altitude for speed and keep the nose down in turns while turning into the good engine.  Go for the head on shot.  Unless an unseen bounce can be made, the transition to a maneuvering opponent's six will require a lot of yanking and banking along with speed dissipation - maybe too much to keep the "dead" wing flying.  

The P-38 handling in the video was likely performed by a test pilot .  He showed what the plane was capable of in the hands of a well trained pilot under controlled conditions.  They probably didn't expect a combat pilot to do much more than exit a fight asap if an engine were lost.

MiG

[Tac]

<kicks the bastige up to the top again>

[Tac]

<punt>

dang my foot is getting sore...

[Voss]

I don't see anything unusual in your film. You wanted it to spin and it obliged you.  

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***-*-

[Tac]

Aye, any plane can spin when pushed to below 100mph and ruddering hard.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of why a 38, 100% undamaged doing a low g bank/turn will spin at 300mph, at 200mph at 180mph... sigh.

[TheWobble]

I wanna know why when you take it straight up verticle and cut the engine it spins out insted of flopping over nose to tail like its supposed to, ive read stories about that and that manny LW pilots would not follow the 38 verticle because if they didnt kill it before it reached its peak it would flop head to tail and shoot them in the face.

[flakbait]

Wobble I can do that little flop with ease. Keep the power at full and wait until she gets just under 50mph then shove the stick into your desk. It'll pop nearly straight down with a little swing; punch WEP and off you go. The film I posted above is still there and still shows the problem. I intentionally stalled it, but the spins were something I didn't expect. All I did was hold the stick back to try and hold the nose up. It spun instead of simply sagging the nose. And I STILL say single operation needs to get fixed along with this!!


-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"During the Battle of Britain the question 'fighter or fighter-bomber?'
had been decided once and for all: The fighter can only be used as a bomb carrier
with lasting effect when sufficient air superiority has been won." Adolph Galland
 

[Daff]

The P-38 (I've seen it once in the F6F too) seems to have a weird "secondary" stall. I call it secondary, because it only seems to happen after a normal stall.
You'll have more than enough flying speed, but yet you can't pull the nose up(stall horn doesnt sound, G-meter not above 2) and if you try to force it (still without any stallwarning), it'll flick over into a spin.
And no..I dont use combat trim

Daff

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[Tac]

<PUNT>

This crap is still happening. No word from anyone yet as to why/IF this happened. So much for the FM  

Guess I should get used to this getting ignored, seems its more important to add more problems than fixing current ones. *shrug*

[Weave]

I rarely fly the P-38, and when I have, I didn't experience any spin problems.

Your posts peaked my interest so I borrowed one from a pal and took it up and put her through the wringer.

Yes I was able to induce departure at any airspeed. However the recovery technique I found to be the easiest of any of the plane set. Simply return all controls (MS Pro stick, CH Pro pedals, both USB)to the neutral position, and she comes right back on her own accord.

I suspect you have a hardware issue.

Weave

[funked]

Tac here's a concept:  Whiny off-topic (this belongs in aircraft or bug forum) threads that have "What the F___" in the subject title are not likely to get much attention from adult professionals.

[Tac]

yeah and im sure all the others which have even posted data get any  

Weave, it does it on the 3 computers ive played AH in. Other pilots have seen it, I even asked the guy on my 6 that shot me down once if he saw me suddenly roll with uberwurger ability during the chase, he confirmed it. Even he was amazed a 38 could roll so fast at 200 or so mph.

Its not spins that worry me, 38 is easy to recover or even stop from entering into a spin. But its that initial 50% of a sping which happens in less than a second that will make you lose a fight, auger or spin to your doom (as your con turns into your 6) that really pisses me off. More so, it seems that once it happens it keep on happening.. even if you level out and fly for a few seconds on auto, the plane will do it again guaranteed, no matter how many g's or what speed you in.

I've read a boatload of stuff, even looked through P-38 training manual, any video on p38 I can get my hands on..in short, a LOT of stuff on it and none even MENTION this behaviour. If something that serious happened, you think it'd be reported eh? I'm still waiting to see what Widewing has to say, he may surely know or have access to a lot more resources than I do.

That is what i'm asking. WHY it happens in AH and DID it happen in RL?