Author Topic: Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .  (Read 546 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2001, 08:28:00 PM »
MG34 has a 800-900rpm rate of fire, you are thinking of MG42 which did 1200-1500rpm.

The guns on the Ju88 are even faster rof than MG34 yet they cant do that. And there are more of them to boot.

No way to get around that its unrealistic gameplay compromise spurred on by an unrealistic Hispano model armor penetration . It already caused buff guns to go unrealistic and now MG34 light MG, yes light MG its really just like .30cal or Brit .303.

If you have any doubts as to low efectiveness of 30cal on moderen WW2 planes structure, consider this, from a BoB book:
A Ju88 was attacked by 5 Spit Is who fired over a total of 7000 rounds of 303 into the bomber, which survived and landed back in france.

Yet the single MG34 on an AH Panzer is able to shoot down a B17, destroy Typhoons doing a rocket attack, and god knows what else.


Who do you guys think you are benefiting by supporting such stupid unrealistic changes to AH, sooner or later HTC will get real arrogant and majorly screw something up, and they wont fix it- and you as a customer will suffer. Im not sayin HTC are bad guys, but they are only human- so when they see there is a gaggle of people who support their every gampley realism reduction no matter what, who says they wont go too far.

If AH was new sim just coming out where panzers were able to blow up planes with one 7.92mm gun, or with our stupid CV flak model or with any of the gameplay comromises we have- all of you would be laughing about its lack of realism on the BBS.

Dont forget wasnt AH supposed to be the high-realism sim? Wasnt that what set it apart from mainstram efforts where too much was compromised for gameplay and easy to learn FM, easy gunnery, easy this easy that. Is AH still decicated to this?

Whats the difference between gameplay compromised gunnery and a gameplay compromised FM, you want hit bubbles now?

Guys dont let AH get crippled by endless compromises, please its not too late- but  the current permissive attitude to such things is troubling.


Offline Suave1

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2001, 08:48:00 PM »
I have to agree . The solution of tweaking the tank mg's to counter the overmodeled 20mm hispano anti-tank properties is malodorously kesmoid . Instead of making concessions to counter concessions made, and drifting farther and farther from realism, just do the right thing and fix the real problem .

Offline MrLars

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2001, 07:20:00 PM »
Just a note about the B17 V Panzer...I have never shot a B17 down with the AA MG on a Panzer...I have damaged one a bit though. IMO, any calibre of gun should be able to make a B17 go pop by killing the pilot with a lucky shot...it happens AtoA so why should it not happen GtoA?

Lars

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[This message has been edited by MrLars (edited 04-03-2001).]

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2001, 07:50:00 PM »
I must make this clear!

It wasnt a pilot kill McLars, what we are talking about is the complete ripping apart of planes structure by a single 800round per minute light 7.92mm machine gun. This is extremly impossible, please educate yourself as to the total inefectivness of 30cal class weapons on modern WW2 airframes. These weapons were nearly useless by the time of WW2.

Nobody can say this is accurate in any way whatsoever, it is simply yet another realism gameplay compromise- any other new sim with such a feature would be ridiculed for lack of realism on the BBS. Imagine if you heard WB had MG34s ripping up heavy bombers and big late war fighters and AH didnt- wouldnt everyone on the BBS be laughing their bellybutton off at WBs roadkill?

Lets stop this now before it goes too far, lets support realism and logic in AH!!

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 04-03-2001).]

Offline Fishu

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2001, 08:38:00 PM »
well, why can't rifle caliber bullets kill pilot from 200 yards if hispano can kill a tank from 900 yards.. read; blow it up literally...

am I missing something?  

Offline Suave1

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2001, 09:00:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu:
well, why can't rifle caliber bullets kill pilot from 200 yards if hispano can kill a tank from 900 yards.. read; blow it up literally...

am I missing something?  

Yes.

We're talking about the new ability of the mg34 on panzers to dismember aircraft with a short burst .


Offline Fishu

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2001, 09:53:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Suave1:
Yes.

We're talking about the new ability of the mg34 on panzers to dismember aircraft with a short burst .


...and?
Hispano does the same thing with couple of bursts on tank.
so i dont wonder why wouldnt low caliber MG do that  

so, what i am missing here?
just underpowered MG151/20 and shvak is missing..  or then im missing the fact that hispano and low caliber MG is over powerful.

Offline Suave1

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2001, 11:47:00 PM »
Fishu the point of this thread is that they turned up the lethality of the panzer mg to the "ludicrous" setting to counter the 20mm hispano carrying planes instead of fixing the anti-tank ability of the hispano 20mm .

 How this escaped you I do not know as it has been stated and restated throughout this thread .

 As for the off topic subject of killing a man at 200yrds with a machine gun.. well who the hell is stupid enough to argue that that isn't realistic .

Offline Fishu

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2001, 06:34:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Suave1:
Fishu the point of this thread is that they turned up the lethality of the panzer mg to the "ludicrous" setting to counter the 20mm hispano carrying planes instead of fixing the anti-tank ability of the hispano 20mm .

 How this escaped you I do not know as it has been stated and restated throughout this thread .

 As for the off topic subject of killing a man at 200yrds with a machine gun.. well who the hell is stupid enough to argue that that isn't realistic .

Geez.. nothing has escaped from me, im just wondering this whining now.
People was less concerned of Hispano blowing up tanks like tin cans and now when they can punch back same sort of power like it sounds to me, people are horrified.

killing a man and a pilot from behind possibly armored windscreen and some other armor are different issues.
bullet kills easily a man 200 yds, but pilot behind all those ... well

so, what causes so much whine now but didn't before when hispanos just blew poor tanks up on a pass or two?

Offline Fokker

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2001, 12:15:00 PM »
The tank gun to me seems fair as it is. You can hardly shoot a plane to pieces, unless you get a pilot kill, and that is what u get often in tank. Planes coming low and straight towards tank are vulnerable to pilot kills. Even that small calibre will kill a pilot.

Offline MrLars

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2001, 02:27:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
I must make this clear!

It wasnt a pilot kill McLars, what we are talking about is the complete ripping apart of planes structure by a single 800round per minute light 7.92mm machine gun. This is extremly impossible, please educate yourself as to the total inefectivness of 30cal class weapons on modern WW2 airframes. These weapons were nearly useless by the time of WW2.
IF you are absolutly sure that that B17 was a virgin, then I would tend to agree with you. I have never been able to remove much more than an control surface from a 17 in a tank. However, I have had the oportunity to shoot many small calibre fully automatic weapons and have personaly dissassembled and old jeep with am M60. The Army has lotsa fun toys...even in the mid 60's.

Someone give you a wedgie or sumthin'?




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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2001, 02:30:00 PM »
Are you seriously comparing a B17 flying at least about 100mph to an as you put it "old jeep" sitting still on the ground?

PS You do know what a B17 is?  -ok ok thats a bit of a cheap shot but you get my point.

Offline MrLars

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2001, 02:36:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Are you seriously comparing a B17 flying at least about 100mph to an as you put it "old jeep" sitting still on the ground?.
No, not comparing at all...just emphasizing the firepower of a small calibre/hi ROF gun...nothing more.
[/B][/QUOTE]PS You do know what a B17 is?  -ok ok thats a bit of a cheap shot but you get my point.[/B][/QUOTE]

ok, ok...so it was a Melvin that they pulled on you, huh?


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Offline Jigster

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2001, 02:54:00 PM »
I see no films. Show me a MG34 taking a wing off with a short burst   As much as I tank I should be subject to this. I have yet to see in a situation where I do not expect it.

I have only twice seen the MG34 take the wing off a plane, both were due to multiple(and poorly executed) passes, aiming at the same point. Both were only a few weeks ago. The plane proceded to pull excessive G's coming around for a pass and the wing snapped off. I've killed alot of B-17's and B-26's in the Panzer, but every single one was with the main gun.

Btw the MG34 Did get upwards of 1000+ rounds after a 10-30 round burst when the cyclic rate went up, providing it was the version with the 600rpm and 900+ (varies)switch. Ironically ours was at 540rpm in pre 1.05, and has been adjusted during one of the versions. .30 cal fire was generally ineffective due to the spreading of fire in aircraft mounted weapons. But given the mounting of the 7.92mm AAMG's used on nearly every possible mount, and the areas of the plane that they hit, one should not expect to be invulnerable to them. The US retained the .30 cal AAMG for the same reason, as did the British in the .303. They were quite capable of downing a plane with concentrated stream of fire. They could generally stay on target much longer anyway, range adjustments allowed for 2000yrd plus firing lines. US .50 cal on the other hand, could hit as far away as 5000 yards, although 7200 was the manual-given distance.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Panzer variant mg34 for ju88 please .
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2001, 04:41:00 PM »
Cool that means my 109F4s 7.92 mm guns should rip up B17s no problem- hey why am I trying to argue against this?