Who defeated Germany?

[RipChord929]

It is inconcievable that THAT generation of
Britons would have handed control of the empire
to the axis powers... Weather the British isles had
fallen or not.. (The current generation is a diff story.)
To quote the Brit ambassador to the German
ambassador in 1940 Switzerland, "Don't presume to
dictate to us, until you are marching up Whitehall...
AND EVEN THEN, WE WON'T LISTEN!!!"
Yes, that actually happened!!! Gotta love those Brits!!!

If the home islands HAD fallen, the war would have
been waged from Iceland.. Her Majesty's fleet would
have joined the US atlantic fleet on the US east coast,
The British Gov in exile would have set up shop in
Canada, and the war would have gone on anyway...

The ONLY reason Germany achieved the success they
did, is because the rest of Europe wasn't ready for
war, (except the french)...

But French troops were betrayed by inept leadership,
and then governmental collaberation...
To the honor of the French soldiers, they bided their time
and survived, until they could join the Free French forces..
Then they fought a savage, very personal, war of redemption
for their nation and ppl!!! <S>

The French and Polish ppl never gave up... Even with the
full weight of the nazi yoke on them!!!
The Brits would have never given up either...

Ppl were just tougher in those days...

RC

[Angus]

Surrender was Widewing's scenario if I understood right.
I would not have belived in Surrender of the home isles. In a what-if scenario, it would rather be about a truce with some "cold" peace as an answer to "Hitler's last appeal to reason" in july (?) 1940.
I worked on an essay on that (There are threads about it) .
It was not that far from possible, but IMHO Churchill was the point of pivot there. Britain with Churchill would not surrender at all, nor make a truce.
Hitler would have wanted entrance to the seas and seize fire with the UK. He also belived that the British empire was a necessary "ballast" for global affairs. If he had played such a possibility cleverly, there might have been a "release" truce to the occupation of some area, time by time.
I think he underestimated the strength and the will of the Brits, and the first demonstration was the BoB...

[MajIssue]

I guess we all forget about the Soviet Counter-Offensive of December 5th 1941.

Reinforcements were being pulled from East, Ski Troops and Tanks attacked and drove the beleaguered Germans back. Had they been occupying some or even all of Moscow, I believe the attack would of been sufficient enough to at least gain some of the city back (had it been occupied).

The Attack was successful enough to encircle pockets of German troops (Demyansk, Velizh, Kolhm, etc.), some which were supplied by air drops and gliders until May of 42!

It is of my opinion that the Germans may have been able to make Moscow possibly even take some of the city, but they would have had to deal with that Counter-Offensive and I don't think they had the logistics to do it. No winter clothing, Extended supply lines, etc.

Since we are talking "what if", a look at the lines of Communication as they existed in 1941 Russia is revealing... Moscow was (and is still) the hub around which all roads and rail lines in the USSR radiated from. With the Soviet government "exiled" to the east, away from the vast majority of it's productive capacity and population, the counter offensive of which you write would have been "too little and too late". The  Dec. 5th offensive was successful because the German advance had stalled, the Army was not properly equipped and living in the open West of Moscow. None of this would have happened if the German plan had followed it's original timeline (posponed by the Italian debacle in the Balkans) With Moscow occupied, the USSR would have (IMO) collapsed and/or sought a separate peace with the NAZIs. Not wanting to take anything away from the bravery of the Russian Soldier, the Red army had virtually no experienced field commanders prior to the Spring of 1942 thanks to Stalin's purge of the officier Corps in 1935-1937. The lack of leaders coupled with the loss of the Capitol would have been the end for the USSR!

[hlbly]

Ok. Wanted to answer this for awhile now . I needed to find some German O.B. data first . First off argueablly  the most decisive arena of battle in Europe during WWII was the land arena . The most decisive instrument there was the Panzer/Armored/Tank divisions of each nation ,Corps in the case of USSR . The deployment of these units by the Germans by front I think answers this question best . Even after the Normandy invasion German Panzer strength never exceeded 6 Army and 5 SS Panzer divisions . The deployment as of January 1945 was as follows .

2nd Panzer
9th Panzer
11th Panzer
116th Panzer
Panzer Lehr
3rd Panzer Grenadier
15th Panzer Grenadier
17th SS Panzer Grenadier

Italy
26th Panzer
29th Panzer Grenadier

East
1st Panzer
3rd Panzer
4th Panzer
5th Panzer
6th Panzer
7th Panzer
8th Panzer
12th Panzer
13th Panzer
14th Panzer
16th Panzer
17th Panzer
19th Panzer
20th Panzer
21st Panzer*
23rd Panzer
24th Panzer
25th Panzer
10th Panzer Grenadier
18th Panzer Grenadier
20th Panzer Grenadier
25th Panzer Grenadier
1st SS Panzer*
2nd SS Panzer
3rd SS Panzer
4th SS Panzer
5th SS Panzer
9th SS Panzer*
10th SS Panzer*
11th SS Panzer Grenadier
12th  SS Panzer Grenadier*
16th SS Panzer Grenadier*
18th SS Panzer Grenadier
23rd SS Panzer Grenadier
GD SS Panzer Grenadier
Fuhrer  Panzer Grenadier*
Fuhrer Begleit  Panzer
Brandenburg  Panzer Grenadier
Kurmark  Panzer Grenadier
Muncheberg  Panzer
Holstien  Panzer
Feldherrnhalle  Panzer
Herman Goering  Panzer
Herman Goering Panzer Grenadier

To be sure all of these units were at varying states of readiness . I added asterisk to indicate divisions that saw service in the west to give an idea of % of Panzer troops that never fought in the west .
Sources available on request .

[Charge]

Just reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Victories-Memoirs-Hitlers-Brilliant/dp/0760320543/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225890317&sr=1-1

I can recommend.

-C+

[BigPlay]

Ok. Wanted to answer this for awhile now . I needed to find some German O.B. data first . First off argueablly  the most decisive arena of battle in Europe during WWII was the land arena . The most decisive instrument there was the Panzer/Armored/Tank divisions of each nation ,Corps in the case of USSR . The deployment of these units by the Germans by front I think answers this question best . Even after the Normandy invasion German Panzer strength never exceeded 6 Army and 5 SS Panzer divisions . The deployment as of January 1945 was as follows .

2nd Panzer
9th Panzer
11th Panzer
116th Panzer
Panzer Lehr
3rd Panzer Grenadier
15th Panzer Grenadier
17th SS Panzer Grenadier

Italy
26th Panzer
29th Panzer Grenadier

East
1st Panzer
3rd Panzer
4th Panzer
5th Panzer
6th Panzer
7th Panzer
8th Panzer
12th Panzer
13th Panzer
14th Panzer
16th Panzer
17th Panzer
19th Panzer
20th Panzer
21st Panzer*
23rd Panzer
24th Panzer
25th Panzer
10th Panzer Grenadier
18th Panzer Grenadier
20th Panzer Grenadier
25th Panzer Grenadier
1st SS Panzer*
2nd SS Panzer
3rd SS Panzer
4th SS Panzer
5th SS Panzer
9th SS Panzer*
10th SS Panzer*
11th SS Panzer Grenadier
12th  SS Panzer Grenadier*
16th SS Panzer Grenadier*
18th SS Panzer Grenadier
23rd SS Panzer Grenadier
GD SS Panzer Grenadier
Fuhrer  Panzer Grenadier*
Fuhrer Begleit  Panzer
Brandenburg  Panzer Grenadier
Kurmark  Panzer Grenadier
Muncheberg  Panzer
Holstien  Panzer
Feldherrnhalle  Panzer
Herman Goering  Panzer
Herman Goering Panzer Grenadier

To be sure all of these units were at varying states of readiness . I added asterisk to indicate divisions that saw service in the west to give an idea of % of Panzer troops that never fought in the west .
Sources available on request .

I think a few more * need to be added. The 2nd SS Panzer Division did see action in the west. I also think the 3rd SS saw action in Italy as well. There most likely is a few more I'd have to check. Feldgrau is a pretty comprehensive panzer site that would have all the answers.The reason that all of these Panzer units were in the east is because that's where all the figting was. Allied armor was not on equal terms with the German armor so few units were needed to contend with the Allied armor threat.

[druski85]

A professor of mine was once asked this question in a WW2 type class.  I've been looking for his sourcing, but he  answered in quite simple terms.  At peak (and these times were different for each front) there were 196 German divisions on the Eastern front - 12 On the west.  Again, I've been searching for the sourcing here, but in my studies I've found similar numbers.  80% doesn't even represent the ratio. 

Also keep in mind that by the time allied troops were on the ground in southern and western Europe, Russia was already on the offensive in the east.  Some German troops were re-deployed back to the west to aid in the Italian campaign and to fortify the French coast, but the vast majority of the wermacht remained in the East where they were getting bloodied.

Now this is not to say Great Britain, the US, Canada, Anzac forces, etc did not play a role.  They kept the Luftwaffe largely occupied, and forced Germany to split forces to several theaters.  I'm in no way downplaying the sacrifices made by any of those nations.  Additionally, I realize how important the supplies and equipment shipped to the soviets were.  However, to claim anyone but the Soviets defeated Germany is a tough argument to maintain. 

[hlbly]

I think a few more * need to be added. The 2nd SS Panzer Division did see action in the west. I also think the 3rd SS saw action in Italy as well. There most likely is a few more I'd have to check. Feldgrau is a pretty comprehensive panzer site that would have all the answers.The reason that all of these Panzer units were in the east is because that's where all the figting was. Allied armor was not on equal terms with the German armor so few units were needed to contend with the Allied armor threat.

Yep missed 2nd SS Panzer . The only one I missed . Sources Gotterdamerung 1945 by Russ Schneider . Also used was O.B. from Fire In The East , and 2nd Front from the Europa series of wargames . Paul Carrells books as well . TotenKopf was not used in the west ever . Not all of the fighting was in the East . IMHO it took both fronts to defeat the Nazis . The anti climatic sense one gets from western histories is caused by the Germans abandoning the western front in the end . By February 1945 for example there was only a single battalion of SS Panzer's fighting in the west ! Note I seperate West and Italy for simplicity .

[BigPlay]

A professor of mine was once asked this question in a WW2 type class.  I've been looking for his sourcing, but he  answered in quite simple terms.  At peak (and these times were different for each front) there were 196 German divisions on the Eastern front - 12 On the west.  Again, I've been searching for the sourcing here, but in my studies I've found similar numbers.  80% doesn't even represent the ratio. 

Also keep in mind that by the time allied troops were on the ground in southern and western Europe, Russia was already on the offensive in the east.  Some German troops were re-deployed back to the west to aid in the Italian campaign and to fortify the French coast, but the vast majority of the wermacht remained in the East where they were getting bloodied.

Now this is not to say Great Britain, the US, Canada, Anzac forces, etc did not play a role.  They kept the Luftwaffe largely occupied, and forced Germany to split forces to several theaters.  I'm in no way downplaying the sacrifices made by any of those nations.  Additionally, I realize how important the supplies and equipment shipped to the soviets were.  However, to claim anyone but the Soviets defeated Germany is a tough argument to maintain. 

 The soviets did win the ground war for the allies no question about that but America and Britian did win the air and sea war for the Allies. I very much doubt that Russia would have won on their own. I also doubt that America and Britian could have won WW2 without Russia. Germany did not want Britian so I would assume that after a long drawn out bloody war with Germany Britian would have setted for peace.

[Angus]

My numbers go for some 90 divisions NOT on the eastern front at the very point of pivot ini december 1941.
Numbers anyone?

[druski85]

 The soviets did win the ground war for the allies no question about that but America and Britian did win the air and sea war for the Allies. I very much doubt that Russia would have won on their own. I also doubt that America and Britian could have won WW2 without Russia. Germany did not want Britian so I would assume that after a long drawn out bloody war with Germany Britian would have setted for peace.

Yea I'm not making the claim that Russia would have beaten Germany mono-e-mono.  I'm just saying that given the conditions as they were, the Soviets deserve the most credit.  Additionally, I'm well aware the Soviets would have gotten *spanked* had Japan not been tied up with the US/GB in the pacific / Indian sub-continent.   I'm just trying to answer the "who defeated Germany" question.  Certainly a team effort, but by far the most credit goes to Soviets in my mind.