Author Topic: Pilot modeling- effect on realism  (Read 1768 times)

Offline RipChord929

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1022
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2008, 06:15:37 AM »
Oh wow
There are MANY cans of worms in this game..
aka Unresolvable issues..

Effect of G on pilots, would open a MAJOR new one...
No two pilots are the same, physical conditioning,
mental discipline, blah, blah..
How could ya POSSIBLY model that?  Ya Can't!!!

I worry about the "game" becoming so anally retentive
about "realism", that it becomes unplayable..

I suppose that someone could develop a "G simulator",
as a game peripheral.. Possibly a band that wraps
around your neck, and uses an airpump to pop your head
like a zit if ya pull too many G's... LOL!!!


C'mon Guys, you DO know that this IS a game right???

Dump your Ord, and lighten up!!!

<S>RC
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 06:29:47 AM by RipChord929 »
"Well Cmdr Eddington, looks like we have ourselves a war..."
"Yeah, a gut bustin, mother lovin, NAVY war!!!"

Offline zoozoo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1734
      • http://myspace.com/zachisbackforasnack
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2008, 07:01:18 AM »
Zoozoo
Jokers Jokers
zoozoo fighter ace issue one:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,240022.0.html

Offline Speed55

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1263
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2008, 07:09:36 AM »
- Planes that had auto retracting flaps should have them, and planes that didn't shouldn't.

Pilot g effect would be really cool.  

Pilot wound effects would be good also. Different wounds have different results.

It's a game, but they could add a balanced version of g's and pilot wound effects so as not to ruin game play, but at least change it up a bit.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 07:13:50 AM by Speed55 »
"The lord loves a hangin', that's why he gave us necks." - Ren & Stimpy

Ingame- Ozone

Offline RipChord929

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1022
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2008, 07:32:00 AM »
Was Just thinking more about this...

As a peripheral
Hmmmm, what if you used a modern G/suit, combined
with a supply of compressed air? Between the two you could
use a, (pc interactive valve) that would compress or release
air press to the suit... In that way, when you pull G's in the game,
you feel the press on your body... Feedback from the suit could
delay blackout on the screen, (Muscle Tension to prevent blackout)..
Just like real pilots train to do...

WOW, that might do it.. Because it wouldn't be generic to all...
YOUR actual physical attributes would effect YOUR gameplay..

Hmmm, get a patent, that might be popular...

RC
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 07:54:23 AM by RipChord929 »
"Well Cmdr Eddington, looks like we have ourselves a war..."
"Yeah, a gut bustin, mother lovin, NAVY war!!!"

Offline Speed55

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1263
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2008, 08:01:44 AM »
And when the valve malfunctions and squeezes too tight, you wind up looking like zoozoo's picture.
"The lord loves a hangin', that's why he gave us necks." - Ren & Stimpy

Ingame- Ozone

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2008, 11:17:48 AM »
Was Just thinking more about this...

As a peripheral
Hmmmm, what if you used a modern G/suit, combined
with a supply of compressed air? Between the two you could
use a, (pc interactive valve) that would compress or release
air press to the suit... In that way, when you pull G's in the game,
you feel the press on your body... Feedback from the suit could
delay blackout on the screen, (Muscle Tension to prevent blackout)..
Just like real pilots train to do...

WOW, that might do it.. Because it wouldn't be generic to all...
YOUR actual physical attributes would effect YOUR gameplay..

Hmmm, get a patent, that might be popular...

RC

BUT then what about the basement trolls? they'd have an almost zero tolerence to g forces.   :rofl
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline A8TOOL

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1720
      • http://fdrs.org/banking_history.html
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2008, 11:49:18 AM »
The spit was just thrown in there to make some wonder. The spit only has two settings...up and down.
I read somewhere that the brits did want 3 stages at one point and in order to take off from a carrier somewhere. They had to wedge a block of wood in the flaps so they would not go down all the way to give it enough lift for take off from a short deck.

The F6 is modeled slower than the real thing and the 51 is modeled to not shoot as straight as it once did... so I have seen and 51 pilots like AKDG have agreed.

An engine fire in any single engined WWII fighter would put you out of commission within a few seconds due to smoke, heat, oil and panic. We have black outs for G's, it would be cool to get red outs to simulate heat.

I'd imagine a small percentage of ords were dud's in real life but in this game bombs and rockets should not bounce off tanks. I've had only one bomb bounce that I know of but plenty of rockets in the previous patch. I gave up trying to hit them with rockets for the most part. I did hit one a few days ago but all I got was a bullet hit sprite and an assist. My first rocket hit assist ever.


All in all the game could be better but is just fine as is for the most part. Don't be fooled, HTC can and does play with  #'s frequently, they can break or fix anything they want and could probably add in pilot G effect...not that I want pilot G affect  :o

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2008, 03:35:16 PM »
The spit was just thrown in there to make some wonder. The spit only has two settings...up and down.
I read somewhere that the brits did want 3 stages at one point and in order to take off from a carrier somewhere. They had to wedge a block of wood in the flaps so they would not go down all the way to give it enough lift for take off from a short deck.nev er knew that about the spits...i thought they just managed with single position flaps....

The F6 is modeled slower than the real thing and the 51 is modeled to not shoot as straight as it once did... so I have seen and 51 pilots like AKDG have agreed.had no clue on these either. i still think the updated f6 turns better, although it could be my imagination. the updated engine oil hit on the other hand......i can't see crap through the windscreen. to land, i had to slip her all the way down final, till over the runway, then let her straighten out, watching the runway through the corners. on another occasion, i flew runway heading to lead a wingie in.

An engine fire in any single engined WWII fighter would put you out of commission within a few seconds due to smoke, heat, oil and panic. We have black outs for G's, it would be cool to get red outs to simulate heat.i thought the fires we got here were fuel tank fires?

I'd imagine a small percentage of ords were dud's in real life but in this game bombs and rockets should not bounce off tanks. I've had only one bomb bounce that I know of but plenty of rockets in the previous patch. I gave up trying to hit them with rockets for the most part. I did hit one a few days ago but all I got was a bullet hit sprite and an assist. My first rocket hit assist ever.


All in all the game could be better but is just fine as is for the most part. Don't be fooled, HTC can and does play with  #'s frequently, they can break or fix anything they want and could probably add in pilot G effect...not that I want pilot G affect  :o

ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2008, 04:51:02 PM »
Would be nice if this was implemented, however I don't think it will be.


Fears of running customers away...


I'm anal retentive about realism but a lot of people aren't.

 

WW2OL has a crappy version of pilot modeling or at least used to when I played, not sure if it's still in the game.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2008, 04:56:33 PM »
It should happen only if the historical aircraft allowed it. If they didn't then forget to retract your flaps at your own risk. :D

Unfortunately, the masses need to be coddled and we'll see no such things as a more realistic flap model.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2008, 05:01:02 PM »
I'd like to see mandatory realistic gunsight modelling, too: planes and vehicles in game should use whatever sight they were equipped with historically. But I'm sure to have VETERANS jumping on me for suggesting such a thing, too. ;)
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline morfiend

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10435
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2008, 05:29:03 PM »
I can't believe I'm the first to say it:  "PROVE IT!" 

Post the pics of your head on a scale!!!   :rofl

I giggled through two pages of replies picturing your head on a scale at work.  For gawd's sake, what the heck did your coworkers say?  The usual?  "What?  Him?  No problem, he'll stop when his break is over."

Other than that, your post was insightful, original, and thought-provoking.  Great stuff.

HONK!







 He's a mountain man he just weighed himself then cut off an arm and weighed himself again!


 As for the head and neck,well kinda self explanatory... :devil

Offline uberslet

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 873
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2008, 05:42:21 PM »
I'd like to see mandatory realistic gunsight modelling, too: planes and vehicles in game should use whatever sight they were equipped with historically. But I'm sure to have VETERANS jumping on me for suggesting such a thing, too. ;)
honestly, i would like that. its simple enough, one small change (but only up near 260 or 270 planes/gv to do) but itd add a lot more realism in such a small way. sure, i think if you didnt like the sight you could change it, but the default for each plane would be historically accurate, im game for this, nice idea!  :salute
MasonZ - In-game ID
=Wings of Terror= - MA Squad
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2008, 05:57:14 PM »
I'm not expecting it, tho. I've been asking HTC to fix the SIZE of the microscopic gunsights in the F4Us (should be about twice as large in size at the default head position) every update since we got the 1A. :p
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Re: Pilot modeling- effect on realism
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2008, 03:54:04 PM »
...I've been giving some thought to how the modeling of our AH pilot (and also joystick set-up) could lead us to being able to get our planes to perform at a higher level than is realistic or even possible.  As in- maybe we're attributing perceived errors to the FM, when the "pilot model" could easily be at least partially to blame.

...Even beyond the obvious questions of exertion, fatigue, etc...

...My joystick is set up with my flaps on a switch on my throttle that I can control with my index finger.  This allows me to control both at the same time, which from what I can tell, shouldn't even be possible in the F4U.  For me, not only is it possible, it's easy and second-nature.  Even under G-load I can easily manipulate both controls- again, I doubt that would be possible in the real plane. 

...Also, under G-load my head should be more difficult to move, and even impossible to hold in certain positions. In a high G turn, should I be able to rapidly transition between looking over my right shoulder, to looking over my left, to looking straight up, while dropping another notch of flaps, reducing throttle, kicking rudder and not jostling the stick too much?  Keep in mind I'm not wearing bulky clothing, gloves etc, while playing at home.  I'm not scared, I don't have to do #2, and I'm not stiff from being in one position and cold for hours at a shot.

...My point is this- even if the FM is correct for any particular plane, I should be able to get performance out of it that would be impossible in real life.  I effectively have a robot flying my plane, programmed by my thoughts.  The physical limitations aren't modeled, and I have the luxury of setting up my controls in a manner that easily allows me to perform actions impossible to perform in real life.

Would it be worthwhile/valuable to have a more accurately modeled pilot?  Would it be difficult?  Would it unfairly restrict people new to the game?  A time-delay between inputs for certain function (throttle and flaps, for example), and slowing down the transition between views as G's increased might add realism.  Also, having certain functions "frozen" under high G's (ability to switch between looking forward and checking high six while experiencing high G's?)  Or even modeling fatigue by slowing down control inputs as time under G's builds...
To respond to Mtn's original comments:  You're absolutely correct about the effect the stress and strain has in RL and AH doesn't present the same issues but then I don't know how it could. A big difference is the ability to use HOTAS whereas no WWII aircraft had this unless you want to consider having a trigger and mike switch on the stick HOTAS.  Gear, Flaps, Cowl flaps, Mixture, trim, etc., etc., are located throughout the cockpit. Even today I know of no airplanes that have all these in a HOTAS configuration but the things you'd need in a fight are.  On the other hand, given the fact that the only option is either a HOTAS setup or using the keyboard I vote for retaining full programmability so you can set up your own HOTAS.

In RL can you look around at 6G?  Sure, sort of.  The way it's done is to preposition yourself before you pull the G's.  For instance, let's say you're making a neutral pass and intend to go into a left turn.  You see you're going to pass him left to left so you slide in your seat to the right and twist to the left a bit so you can follow him as he passes, once you're in position THEN you pull the 6 G's.  You may not be able to swing your head around much but if you're in the right position you can follow him with your eyes and you can see alot that way.  Also, the idea of continuous 6G turns isn't realistic, it's usually something like 6G for a few seconds then unload and roll at low G then put on the G again.  You use those times of low G to reposition, check six, do a belly check, check your fuel/alt, etc., and do any of these other things you'd need to do.

Extended fights are something that can't really be addressed realistically in AH.  In RL a high-G fight is exhausting even with powered flight controls, G suits and cockpit airconditioning.  If you get into a fight that lasts for more than a few minutes or a series of back to back fights you're drenched in sweat, your muscles ache and it gets harder and harder to handle the G.  The tradeoff is that your opponent is in exactly the same condition so it sort of evens out.  In WWII this would probably be an even more dramatic dropoff in pilot performance given the non-boosted controls, no AC and terrible control ergonomics.

Bottom line is that it would be almost impossible to realistically model the physical "pilot" in a way that would be meaningful and we're not going to get full simulator cockpits in the near future so we have to go with what we have.  Does this mean we all get more out of the planes than a RL WWII pilot would?  Absolutely but then we don't fly them the same way anyway.  Fear of death is a big motivator in your decision making that just dosen't transfer into a game so there's only so much realism you're going to get anyway.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 03:55:44 PM by Mace2004 »
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF