Author Topic: Help with rolling scissors  (Read 2566 times)

Offline Sonicblu

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 653
Help with rolling scissors
« on: October 26, 2008, 11:42:15 PM »
Thnks for all that helped with spiral climb.

I need help with rolling scissors. I know it sounds weird but I am able to do a rolling scissors if someone else starts it. I have trouble initiating it because i don't understand all the components. I know what it looks like in the film viewer. But how do I start it. Then how do I control it.

1. When to initiate?
2. How do Initiate with someone on my six?
3. How do i control it? i.e. rudder and throttle control and what it takes to win it.

I saw the video in the training site. It is one thing looking at it and then doing it when I'm in the plane.

One more question what are the differences between the rolling scissor and the barrel roll.

Thanks in advance.

Offline mechanic

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11327
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2008, 01:38:09 AM »
Rolling scissors usualy starts when two planes merge at an off angle which doesnt provide either with a good shot. Take your basic head on merge crossing at 180 degrees and both turn you get another head on merge. If you duck under the merge and concede a small shot, leading your opponent to turn with you, you also open the angles to make the next two respective turns obscure and not meet again head to head with another off angle merge with advantages going to whoever flew that scissor the best.
 more simple way of looking at it:
When you pull up into a diving con and perform a reversal over the attack and roll back for a shot that is a rolling scissor component. So as to how to initate a RS its the bnZ reversal move where the only variable is the angle you are attacking/being attacked from.
 Also remember it takes two to rolling scissor. Otherwise its just you doing a barrel move on them. When both player fight using a barrel strategy rolling scissors develope on their own.

Look up Texture in the TA, undoubtably the master of anything scissors.

And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Kazaa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8371
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2008, 03:18:20 AM »
Is Texture Airvent/Baitbug ?



"If you learn from defeat, you haven't really lost."

Offline dentin

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 738
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2008, 08:49:57 AM »
Rolling scissors usualy starts when two planes merge at an off angle which doesnt provide either with a good shot. Take your basic head on merge crossing at 180 degrees and both turn you get another head on merge. If you duck under the merge and concede a small shot, leading your opponent to turn with you, you also open the angles to make the next two respective turns obscure and not meet again head to head with another off angle merge with advantages going to whoever flew that scissor the best.
 more simple way of looking at it:
When you pull up into a diving con and perform a reversal over the attack and roll back for a shot that is a rolling scissor component. So as to how to initate a RS its the bnZ reversal move where the only variable is the angle you are attacking/being attacked from.
 Also remember it takes two to rolling scissor. Otherwise its just you doing a barrel move on them. When both player fight using a barrel strategy rolling scissors develope on their own.

Look up Texture in the TA, undoubtably the master of anything scissors.




You need to spend more time in the TA.  Spread your knowledge around..especially to me.   :D  Most players learn quickly when participating in O.J.T.    :aok
"The more I see of the depressing stature of people, the more I admire my dogs."
 Opinions are like Armpits..everyone has two and sometime they both stink!
"No matter how much things change, They remain the same"

Offline Badboy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2008, 10:12:03 AM »

I need help with rolling scissors.

One more question what are the differences between the rolling scissor and the barrel roll.


Ok, let’s clear up the barrel roll question first.

The Barrel Roll is one of a family of closely related maneuvers that can be carried out offensively or defensively. Naming conventions vary among simulation pilots, and it is common to see them refer to a barrel roll when they are actually executing a lag roll, a quarter plane, or a vector roll. I’ll describe the Barrel and Vector Roll attacks together since they are pretty similar in execution (g being the major variable). Offensively, these maneuvers are not seen much in the Aces High arena... When used offensively they are well up the "food chain" in sophistication and complexity, so the barrel roll is employed far more often as a means of turning a defensive situation into a brief offensive one, after a poorly executed attack. That’s the rub, it only works with some unwitting co-operation from the attacker, but it can be very impressive when it works, because it can often get a kill against an attacker that has a big advantage.

Before talking about the barrel roll though, it is important to remain clear about the motive for carrying out any maneuver during air combat, and in air combat there is only one reason to maneuver… Any ideas?

You maneuver in air combat so as to improve your chances of a successful shot. 

The Barrel/Vector roll is designed to solve an aspect problem when you can match the turn rate and speed of your opponent but you find yourself too much inside his turn. Basically your range and aspect present you with a very low probability shot. In this situation, you have aligned your fuselage with his but you have too much lateral separation, i.e. you have too much sideways displacement. Your objective is to reduce the lateral separation without losing your angle off advantage... meaning you want to get behind him and still keep your fuselage aligned with his.

Make sure you understand the underlying need, what BFM problem are you trying to solve? Assume your opponent is turning in a similar aircraft and you are holding the turn with him. Your angle off is low, your fuselages nearly aligned, that’s good. Your aspect, however, is too far inside his turn... meaning that you are too far away from him with too much lateral displacement for a shot and appear to be stuck there. What you want to do is to somehow move your aircraft across the space between you and your opponent without changing your low angle off and without losing angles or energy. So, the basic idea of these two maneuvers when used offensively is to reduce your aspect angle, without losing your angle off advantage, while holding onto any small closure or turn rate advantage you may have.

Most arena pilots will try to solve that problem by opening their turn, and trying to take the low probability shot, at a close enough range that can work well, but when the combination of range and aspect are just beyond your gunnery skills, attempting to open the turn for a shot will cost angles, increase the range and the aspect, and because they will need to tighten the turn again afterwards to recover, by pulling higher G at higher speed, they will also waste energy. The end result will be wasted ammunition and energy and a bigger BFM problem than the one they started with.

However, that is the most common response in the arena, and sometimes it will work, particularly if in a dissimilar aircraft engagement, one aircraft outclasses the other, in weapons or performance such that the attacking pilot is willing to sacrifice good BFM for a shot, and if you are an excellent shot, you can afford to be lazy. Don’t forget, the whole point of our maneuvers is to reduce the angle off, aspect, and range inside the limits of our gunnery skills.

So, back to the Barrel Roll… Your aspect angle is too high and... you don’t want to overshoot his 3/9 line for all the obvious reasons. If you simply try to pull harder on the bandit and then reverse back to his heading, you will bleed too much energy. Instead, you execute a rolling maneuver designed to reduce your aspect without losing too much energy in the process. You start by aligning fuselages then begin an easy pull to approximately 20 degrees above the plane of motion of your opponent, you should see him low on your canopy rail area, continue the roll over your opponent’s flight path into a lag pursuit position. Aim just behind him. As a technique, do not roll past 90 degrees relative to his plane of motion. Do not use extra back pressure in the roll. Extra back pressure will pull your nose towards his six and will increase your angle off. You do not want that to happen. Hold the roll as your opponent drifts below your canopy rail and continue as your flight path drifts from its starting point inside the turn to a point at your opponent’s high six o’clock. His turn rate will cause you to “float” to his high six. Think of yourself as being “inverted” relative to his bank angle. Now roll quickly 180 degrees so that you are now looking down onto your opponent... your bank angle now approximates his. Your angle off is close to his and your aspect angle is minimal. Overbank slightly to bring your nose down... the enemy aircraft should be coming into your forward view/gun sight so that you can complete your attack.

Vector Roll.  For this maneuver, you are rapidly approaching your opponent from the inside of his turn. You have little angle off or aspect, but your closure is excessive. So much so that you cannot kill it with idle power or other braking techniques (dropping flaps or landing gear). You are in danger of overshooting his 3/9 line. You are going to have to let geometry save the day. The concept behind this maneuver is to rotate your lift vector aggressively around the flight path of your opponent. This will require a relatively high g load with a resultant high angle of attack (AOA) and corresponding high drag penalty. This rotating of your lift vector and associated drag will kill off your excessive closure. Start by blending in back pressure and aileron to raise your nose and, at the same time, begin pulling it towards your opponent’s six o’clock. 20-30 degrees pitch should be plenty. Pull your throttle back if closure is very high, otherwise leave your throttle where it is. You will see your opponent descend towards your canopy rail. You will be rolling around his high six. Keep the back pressure in as you continue to roll all the way around back to where your bank angle approximates his. You should have your opponent in your front quarter. If he is not in your forward view, roll towards him and pull until he appears in the gun sight. Do not confuse this maneuver with a Lag Roll. A lag roll is similar but flown with much less g. In a lag roll, you roll with moderate g (2-3) around your opponent’s flight path. The objective in a lag roll is to “back out” from a too close six o’clock position, while a vector roll’s objective is to reduce closure without necessarily reducing your range.

The rolling scissors shown below often results from a close-in vertical overshoot, or may be a natural progression of the flat or low speed scissors. As the name implies, this type of scissors involves a series of barrel rolls with the axis of the roll in the direction of motion. The rolling scissors is a more efficient defensive manoeuvre than the horizontal scissors due to the utilisation of the three-dimensional maneuver (barrel roll). The rolling scissors may be used in nearly all situations where a horizontal scissors could be used, except when the defender does not have enough speed to roll over the top. It is most effective when the attacker overshoots the defender with a high angle off below his flight path.



You continue to barrel roll, placing your lift vector on or slightly aft of the bandit. Your goal is to execute the rolling scissors as shown and explained in the diagram above and to capitalize on any mistake the bandit makes.  To stay offensive in a rolling scissors, you use the three-dimensional environment to control your energy effectively by:

  • Proper lift vector placement
  • Pulling to the edge of the stall
  • Trading airspeed for altitude to reduce your forward velocity vector
  • Use flaps to lead the top and retract them to lag the bottom, just as you would in a vertical fight

In all this, you are trying to stay behind the bandit.  A key factor in winning the rolling scissors is to understand that it is the steepness of your climbs and dives (the helix angle of your flight path) that determines your horizontal movement more than your absolute speed.

Hope that helps...

Badboy
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 10:15:12 AM by Badboy »
The Damned (est. 1988)
  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Air Warrior Trainer - Retired

Offline A8TOOL

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1720
      • http://fdrs.org/banking_history.html
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 01:37:42 PM »
There is some great info here but as some may know, I like to post visuals.










Right clicking on the picture and choosing properties lets you see where any link came from. These are from http://members.tripod.com/~F15EEagle/manu.html
Air Combat Maneuvres

EDIT:

Tripod sucks... they took their images away from this thread. You can see those images from the link I provided or this one which is just as good.

http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/index.aspx
CombatAircraft.com - Tactics
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 03:48:56 PM by A8TOOL »

Offline Kazaa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8371
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 03:55:19 PM »
wow Badboy, I didn't know you were still about. Do you play much AH2 these days ?






"If you learn from defeat, you haven't really lost."

Offline Badboy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2008, 04:30:27 PM »
wow Badboy, I didn't know you were still about. Do you play much AH2 these days ?

Yep, I fly as often as I can, and I'm still very active in training.

You don't see me post as often as I would like to, probably because the AH community is so well educated about this stuff now, that someone always seems to post a very good response before I can hit the send button :)

Badboy
The Damned (est. 1988)
  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Air Warrior Trainer - Retired

Offline Kazaa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8371
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2008, 04:53:23 PM »
Is there any chance we could get together in the TA/DA sometime ? The times I bouted with you as a rookie was invaluable in regards to improving my ACM. I just got back from a long break from AH2 and I would love to scrap some rust away.



"If you learn from defeat, you haven't really lost."

Offline Badboy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2008, 07:00:51 PM »
Is there any chance we could get together in the TA/DA sometime ? The times I bouted with you as a rookie was invaluable in regards to improving my ACM. I just got back from a long break from AH2 and I would love to scrap some rust away.

Sure, just let me know what times you fly and I'll make a point of hooking up with you.

Badboy
The Damned (est. 1988)
  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Air Warrior Trainer - Retired

Offline Agent360

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
      • http://troywardphotography.com
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2008, 07:04:47 PM »
Have a look at these films I made.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,235050.0.html

Watch the narriated ones. Most are scissor films. I am sure these will help you out.

Agent360

Offline Sonicblu

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 653
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2008, 11:28:10 PM »
thanks for the help nice info I guess I just have to practise.

Am I right that you want to full throt and wep into the top of the scissors. then chop throt when coming around the bottom? Hope i asked that right. To get the steppest angle in the helix.

Offline mechanic

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11327
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2008, 01:25:25 AM »
as rough a rule of thumb yep, think about it, it makes sense to work with gravity not fight it.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2008, 09:10:47 AM »
thanks for the help nice info I guess I just have to practise.

Am I right that you want to full throt and wep into the top of the scissors. then chop throt when coming around the bottom? Hope i asked that right. To get the steppest angle in the helix.
Remember that there are several variations of a rolling scissors.  We mostly see low speed ones and as mechanic says yes, if you've got the e then by all means manage it on the downside.  To go further; however, if the fight begins at altitude, particularly if we're talking late war fighters, then the scissors can become a descending high speed, high G version.  It's normal that you're fast across the bottom in any rolling scissors but if you're so fast that you're constantly at risk of blacking out in one of these descending fights then your turn-rate and, most importantly, radius will suffer.  You're actually maintaining greater than corner velocity so you may actually want to throttle back for the entire evolution.  If you can get your plane slowed down to corner velocity while your opponent doesn't then he will spit out in front.
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline Tr1gg22

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 871
Re: Help with rolling scissors
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2008, 04:15:42 PM »
well there is a lot of good posts here on this subject...I never plan a rolling scissors usually I use one of my main defensive spirals when someone is on my 6..If the guy is good enough we usually end up in the RS and can last for along time='s a lot of fun unless someone zooms in for the easy kill :D :salute
"CO" of the Wobblin Gobblins...