Guns Too Strong?

[funked]

"1. It's too easy to hit at long range <"the guns shoot too far/too accurately">.

2. The guns are "too lethal (strong)."

Actually I'm saying #2 allows #1.  Because each bullet is a 105mm howitzer shell, a long range spray-and-pray technique will work because only a tiny hit % is needed.  

[Vermillion]

Juzz just picked up my Spitfire pilots manual and looked at the cut away.

No the fuel tanks aren't right behind the pilot.

But an oxygen tank, a compressed air tank, and a flare container (never knew this was there on a Spitfire) all sit right behind the pilots armor.

If any one of those three got hit, it could cause a explosion/critical failure and rip the rear fuselage right off if the aircraft was pulling G's. Especially in conjunction with three simultaneous 20mm hits.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Lephturn]

I still don't see it funked.  shrug.

I do notice it tends to be the WB folks that have the most "issues" with the gunnery and damage modelling though.  I think as Verm mentioned, that is likely the crux of the issue.

Interestingly enough, if you go to the WB training site and read Worr's guns defence lectures, the ranges he gives to start your moves still work in AH.  I assume things have changed in WB since the "old days" when those articles were written.

[Pongo]

Funked
Are you routinely getting wacked at over 450 or so? I rarely am. And conversly except for big old bombers or some one who is hanging in mid air showing me his full plane view I rarley do terrible damage at over 500. I have in a f4u1c taken a FW down from over 900 but he just ignored me, and it took all of the massive amount of ammo the corsair had. And he didnt explode he stalled with smoke and pieces and then I got him on the decent. I like the guns, I like the signifigant differences in accuracy rof and ballistics of the different guns. Most of the time people shoot at me I dont die which seems to be what you are saying.
Most of the time I HO I die but shaw would hardly argue with that.
I hope you find some way to enjoy the game more, I dont think that your experiace is typical.

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Toad]

Just to recalibrate my thoughts, I went back to <ahem> "that other sim" last nite.

I flew around Offline shooting at planes for a while to get back into the groove. <Mostly to try long range gunnery on poorly maneuvering AI targets>.

Then I went online and flew two missions in a Spit V and a Hurri II <early planeset>. I think I got 2 kills and 2-3 assists.

Admittedly, this is a brief peek there but it doesn't seem all that different from when I played a lot before.

My thoughts are that the guns <ballistics> do allow hits out to about 700 maybe even 800. It's tough to get them though.

The main reason for this is the old pixel ratio bugaboo. It's not that you can't REACH the targets with the guns, it's that you can't see to aim. The AH zoom makes a real difference in this regard, primarily on a non-maneuvering <no ACM/runnning> target.

As far as damage or "leathality", it seems pretty clear to me that the "other sim" has toned down leath. I guess this makes the fights last longer so that you can do some of "that pilot sh*t, Mav". In any event, I view it as a "playbalanced" item, not one based in hard data.

It took significant numbers of 20mm from 200 yards to kill two Spits. Used a large proportion of my cannon ammo, observed many, many hit flashes before fatal damage occured. I am of the opinion that this would not be the case in a RL situation.

All in all, I don't think it was any harder or easier to kill there. It just required a different technique. The sorties felt very similar to those I fly here.

Nor did I observe any real difference in ACM applicability between the two games. One Spit never saw me close on his 6; the dream shot   . He died easily but took quite a few hits.

The other guy was a marvelous spit driver. A great fight that lasted 2-3 minutes. The major difference was that I started above him, perhaps the KEY move in ACM   . He took many, many pings.

So what would the other game be like with a "mathematically correct" zoom option? My guess is that it would be VERY similar to what we have here. Wonder why that would be    

As a side note, the new Med terrain struck me as huge. Takes a long time to get anywhere. I never could shake the feeling that I could hear the meter running  

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-20-2000).]

[funked]

Pongo - No I don't worry about when I get whacked, because due to net lag, I don't know what the range was on the other pilot's FE.

I'm basing my comments more on what's going on at my end.

I'm enjoying the game, thanks.  I voted with my dollars and my feet even before the trainer applications were requested.  

But I know a lot of pilots that find the WB dogfights a little more enjoyable because there is more of an emphasis on flying than shooting.  A lot of potential customers!

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-20-2000).]

[funked]

Lephturn:

"I do notice it tends to be the WB folks that have the most "issues" with the gunnery and damage modelling though"

Yes, because WB has long had the best modeling of weapons and damage of any online sim!  We're spoiled!

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-20-2000).]

[Pongo]

Funked,
I have only played WB offline and I agree that guns are less leathal there. For my curiosity, do pilots get 8+ kill missions there? Its rare here but 9-10 kill vulches do happen. It was certainly possible in WW2 to get 7 or so if you where a god and the bad (good) guys cooperated. And they did that with 1* 20 and 2 + 7.9mm. Would that be possible in Warbirds with its lessend leathality? Do we want it to be possible?
If you force an attrition model of damage into the game then many important planes like the 109 become less effective. Or do you then increase just there effectiveness to compensate?

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Lephturn]

funked,

I know WB has long been the best for a realistic gunnery model, but AH has leap-frogged it IMHO.  I think the real issue is that the WB gang is having trouble switching from an old "high velocity basket balls" playbalanced model to a realistic one.    I'm sure you guys will come around eventually. <G>

Pongo,

In WWII, nobody would be silly enough to try taking off from a tightly vulched field... repeatedly.  The opportunity to vulch 10 guys in a single mission would just never occur in real life, IMHO.  I think HTC has made the correct choice.  Model the gunnery and damage as accuratly as you can and let the chips fall where they may.

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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/

[Pongo]

Thats not what I said Leph.Sorry wasnt clear. I was asking if on a dampend lethality model would one of the German pilots 7 kill sorties be possible. Obviosly the weapons were capable of it, even 1 * 20 and 2 * 7.9.

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Lephturn]

Sorry Pongo.. misread your post.  


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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/

[Dnil]

Has anyone mentioned the perfect radar each aircraft has? and its perfect distance measuring devices?  I think if this was available to the vets back then long range shooting would have been widely used, imagine if the icon system was better, I know for one I would never shoot until the screen was filled with plane.  Now I can make a gunsite that has death dots for different ranges, because I have radar constantly computing my range for me.  One day the perfect icon system, we can only hope.  Its not the guns, its the ease at shooting long range with them.  hmm i just thought of something, how are the hit sprites modelled, at long range a ping fills the whole aircraft, is it then modelling a hit on the whole aircraft at long range?

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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer

[Lephturn]

Dnil,

Welp... since we don't have a 3D display and hence no depth perception, we must have some way to judge range.  Please feel free to suggest a better system.  

As for the hit sprites you ask about.  I'm sure the hit sprites are a constant size, so against a farther away plane, the sprite will look bigger.  As far as I know, that has nothing to do with the hit or damage modelling.  The hit sprites are just a graphical way to let us know we are hitting something with all that lead we're chucking around.    AH models every round fired with the most detailed damage model I've yet seen in a simulation.  So no, it's not modelling a hit on the whole aircraft.

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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/
MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and letting her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war
Steve Earl

[funked]

Pongo:  There was just recently a new version of WB released with a new damage model.  I haven't played it much so I won't comment.

But for previous versions of 2.5, 2.6, and 2.7, yes 8 kills or so was about the upper limit for a plane like the Me 109 or Yak-3.  I had 7 in a Ki-43 once.

[funked]

Good articles on this topic:
 http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-1.htm
 http://www.combatsim.com/htm/dec98/ace9.htm