Guns Too Strong?

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by janneh:
In AGW there is loud discussion of 109K4's 30mm gun effectiviness.
It took only 3-4 shells to blow B-17, Lancaster or Halifax, prolly only 1 shell for fighters.

Why does it need over 10 30mm hits into buffs before they disassemble? *G*
At least last time when I shot a buff, i emptied my whole 30mm magazine into it, most hits into tail, about 20 hits overall hit the plane from close, 1 stab was lost.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Are Guns too Strong?

I guess I have to respectfully disagree.

Not sure exactly who you have been up against in the arena or what kinds of planes, but maybe I have been lucky and encountering all the baby seals  

Yes if you are flying a .50 cal plane, you can get light weight hits on a badguy from far away, but only if he is flying straight and level for a long time. A low G turn will defeat long range gunnery every time. And it still takes a crap load of ammo to do it. And the .50's are not that lethal (most of my sorties are in Pony's). They take solid bursts at convergence to do serious damage.

Now I won't argue that 20mm's (especially with x4 of em) will rip you a new orifice in a heartbeat, but isn't that the way it should be? And to be honest, I find the 20mm's hard to hit with beyond 400-500, even if the other guy is not defending himself (ie impossible, unless a buff). Anytime I fly the N1K2, C-Hog, or La5, I have to seriously readjust my gunnery, because of the much more pronounced drop in velocity, and slow rate of fire.

Then again it may all just be a matter of flying style. I fly BnZ, and E style, so I prefer guns to be lethal. One pass, One kill is a must if you want to survive in a E-Fighter.

Actually what I've read, 20mm should be more lethal than 12.7mm round from far, because 20mm has more mass, which gives it more range (also, it should help bullet with piercing armour)

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by MiG Eater:
I recall that Hans-Joachim Marseille shot down 6 (if memory serves) airplanes with only 14 cannon shells and a small number of MG rounds (40?) on one mission.  I wish I could remember the source to verify the numbers (Aces Of the Luftwaffe, maybe).  It was an amazingly low qty of shells owing to his deflection shooting prowess.  Erich Hartmann found that only a few 20mm rounds to the IL-2's oil cooler would result in a kill on an otherwise heavily armored airplane.  They are the exception rather than the rule but showed how effective a few cannon hits could be against single engine aircraft.

Actually he didn't just spray from 500 yards away or so, he did fire very very close.
I bet he were shooting much more closer than you can even think about in AH  

[Vermillion]

Not arguing with you in the least Fishu.

Where did I say anywhere that a .50 cal (12.7mm) should be as deadly or more deadly than a 20mm?

In fact I know quite a bit about aircraft guns and their corresponding lethality, check out my website I have an indepth writeup there on that subject.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[funked]

"I fly the cannon Hog "

sums it up

[Lephturn]

LOL funked!

Why don't you just post a film and show us all?  Yeah I do fly the cannon hawg, but I can't get the long range hits you are talking about.  And this plane has the best long-range hitting power in the game.  The Hispano's have the trajectory and velocity of a .50 cal MG round, and have explosive payload when they get there to boot.

So yeah, I fly the cannon hog and I can't get long range kills.  I guess that does say it all.    The gunnery model is fine.

------------------
Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/

[funked]

I'll have to figure out how to use the film thingy I guess.  

Also remember my complaint is not the range.  It's the number of hits required.

[danish]

Agree with funked.
Been killed lots d6-8 on my FE (I know : lag..).Record so far is lost rudder to a hog at d14.Hosed a 109 down at d8 the oter day in a 2x20mm Fw (But I *am* working on close up shooting..).And no I havnt got film.

But one thing I like for sure: you can acturally kill in LW iron.

danish

[Vermillion]

I do know one thing.

In both AW and WB's over the years, during all the never ending lethality debates, the developers and other informed people have always commented that if we had truely "realistic" gunnery model most people wouldn't like it.

This is because traditionally lethality was severly toned down, for "playbalancing" and for "fun fights".

<shrugs> I am not sure who is right, but I like the current gunnery system.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[janneh]

MiG Eater:
Yes it was "HORRIDO! Fighter Aces Of The Luftwaffe"
...he (Marseille)often landed with less than half his ammunition expended (Bf109). And this from missions on which he had scored as many as six kills !.
...We (Galland's staff) found that that Marseille needed an average of only fifteen (15) bullets per kill -which is tremendous.
Pages 83-84.

Fishu, couldn't find any statement of firing distances, but there was one  mission explained and he started firing on first kill about 100 metres (Curtiss).
He shot down 8 enemy fighters in 10 minutes on that mission !!!  

[This message has been edited by janneh (edited 02-16-2000).]

[janneh]

Oh and here are the pics for 30mm lethality (stolen pics, sorry):
 
 

 

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Not arguing with you in the least Fishu.

Where did I say anywhere that a .50 cal (12.7mm) should be as deadly or more deadly than a 20mm?

In fact I know quite a bit about aircraft guns and their corresponding lethality, check out my website I have an indepth writeup there on that subject.

Where did you get idea to think that I was thinking so?

You said there about finding 20mms harder to hit from distance... though, I don't see much bigger problems there, actually ive done far hits better with 20mm.. (usually quite much more effect in those than never expected)


Juzz: I have done kills also with 10-15 hits average in 109s
I haven't flown either since beta ended, actually, quit that already couple days before, because I got bored up to routine, with same planes, nothing new.. and 3-7 kill sorties with 109G2 (without pods)
(love that plane, guess those good luck insignias has something and with my nationality)

[funked]

Ya know I hadn't had a chance to fly Patch 3 until the last coupla days.  Don't know if it's placebo effect or what, but it seems more reasonable now.  I'll just shut up and fly.  

[SC-GManMP]

Well guys, yesterday was my first day in the pay arena, and my first sortie up with a F4U-1C, i made a short burst at a spitfire of about 6 rounds, three pings lit up and the plane exploded. Distance was 650m.
I have no arguments with the gunnery modeling or coding.  I got 3 kills that sortie and still had 240 rounds in each pair.


------------------
Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight

[funked]

Janneh NICE pics!

And just think - those are unloaded ground tests.  Under flight loads even skin damage can result in structural collapse.  I've seen the MK 108 and ammo in person and it's an evil looking piece of equipment.