Couple films

[Murdr]

Thanks for taking a look.

I watched the film clip you provided from the point you mentioned.  It looked to me like your opponent would have ended up nose to nose with you if he had carried his initial merge through its complete arc.

What may be deceiving is that by the time I reached vertical I was practicing some energy managment.  I was in good position, so I eased my turn back to 3Gs, and saved a bit of energy in the process.  During the first part of my turn I was peaking the G meter at 8Gs multiple times.  From the external view below, you can see I should easily been inside the spits turning circle.

[PFactorDave]

What my be deceiving is that by the time I reached vertical I was practicing some energy managment.  I was in good position, so I eased my turn back to 3Gs, and saved a bit of energy in the process.  During the first part of my turn I was peaking the G meter at 8Gs multiple times.  From the external view below, you can see I should easily been inside the spits turning circle.
(Image removed from quote.)

I see that you probably would have been inside his turn on the second merge from your illustration.  But not by very much.  He definitely flattened out and climbed more then he would have if he wanted to meet you on the second merge.  If he had held the immelman, he would have passed above you, probably allowed a passing guns shot from you (maybe what he wanted to avoid), but perhaps set himself up to win the third merge.

((BTW, I'm not trying to be argumentative at all, I'm trying to learn by questioning what you are telling me))

  and thanks.

[Murdr]

I wonder if you might take a look at this next film...  A very similar fight...  I think I had a better merge, maybe....  Perhaps I'm still fiddling with the throttle more than i should...

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ea9273c6ecfdbe5dab1eab3e9fa335ca321633ea72b60a23

That's a little better on the merge.  You could still be more agressive in seeking separation.

Where he inverted on the initial merge, I'd have automatically flattened out my initial turn.  If you're going up, and he's turning down, you'll end up separating enough for another nose to nose merge.  But around 1:30 you were faced with the same situation and that time you countered with a flat turn and gained angles in the process.  You could still use some polish on subsequent merges so that there arn't delays between a merge and your next maneuver, but overall you fought a much better fight than the previous film.

[Murdr]

I guess my biggest problem is that I am not ready for the level you are trying to teach, and I don't know where to find the instruction that bridges the gap.  I really do understand the concepts you are talking about, in theory at least.  But putting them to practice is apparently escaping me.  I've had some good experiences with a few trainers, but like you, they tend to talk beyond my level a bit.  Everything you said makes perfect sense to me, but how I should have applied it to the fights in question escapes me.  Sorry.

Not at all.  I don't *think* all this stuff during a fight.  I just do.  If you get the concepts, then you'll be able to examine your fights after the fact and figure out how it could have been done better.  It takes time and practice for you to just automatically react appropriately to how you see the fight unfolding.  Eventually it does become automatic after making a concious effort at it for a little bit.

Edit:  Excelent discussion by the way.  Ideally, other players may come along and pick up a few things from our Q&A.

[CAP1]

I guess my biggest problem is that I am not ready for the level you are trying to teach, and I don't know where to find the instruction that bridges the gap.  I really do understand the concepts you are talking about, in theory at least.  But putting them to practice is apparently escaping me.  I've had some good experiences with a few trainers, but like you, they tend to talk beyond my level a bit.  Everything you said makes perfect sense to me, but how I should have applied it to the fights in question escapes me.  Sorry.

The films I posted were both against Spit8s, which I typically would consider better turners then my Ki84.  I've had very little luck entering such fights at top speed in my Ki84 (full throttle all the time), much more luck lately when I enter the fights much closer to Cv, and keep it closer to that.  I can only hope that this awareness of my cornering speed and management thereof is taking me beyond the average MA flyer and eventually will open doors to a more nuanced approach.

hey dave,

one thing ya might want to try?

 waayy b ack when i first started, ren was workign with me in the TA, as was musdr when he could.

 ren was trying to explain things to me as we fought in there, but i just couldn't "get it".
what he had me do, was to join him, and take a ride. when you do that, you see what they're seeing.
 if you were able to find a trainer to let ya join them in one of the MA's, you might be able to bribe em to give ya a bit of commentary as to why they're doing what, and when to do certain things.

 keep this thread going.....it's GREAT reading. i d/l'd the first three films at home last night.
my problem with the film viewer now, though is that i can;t see any control inputs. the yoke doesn't move, i can't see the flaps move or anything like that.

<<S>>

[humble]

This where a top notch trainer like murdr or WW (not slighting any of the others or myself) really can help. As murdr said in the other thread its 95% about correcting misconceptions. Like a good golf pro determining the order and interplay of the corrections is an art form. I'd say I'm at a point where I'm probably 60/40 on a good day on overall management of my ACM when viewed from the rare air of "optimum". IMO what a really good trainer does is exactly what murdr is doing...planting a seed. A good pilot who is diligently applying new knowledge will normally make large leaps from small pieces of quality observation and often initiates a domino effect as one "correction" suddenly makes 2 or 3 other things suddenly seem obvious.

[humble]

whoops....double posted

[PFactorDave]

Edit:  Excelent discussion by the way.  Ideally, other players may come along and pick up a few things from our Q&A.

As long as your willing....  Here's another chunk of film from earlier today.  Not much of interest in the first part where I use yo-yo's on an F4U, but I would like you to take a look at the second engagement.  The 109  gets a crossing shot on me after a couple turns.  Fortunately, he didn't put much ammo on target, then I got a similar crossing shot shortly after.  Luckily I got a more solid hit on him.  I can't fail to consider that he was able to hit me first and had he been a better shot would have killed me before I got my shot on him...

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ea9273c6ecfdbe5dab1eab3e9fa335cacd2985923a3cf451

Unfortunately, this one fight is about the only fight I had today that quialifies as a 1vs1.

[PFactorDave]

Flew a little more this evening...  Here's a link to two film clips of some furballing over Tank Town Island in LWOrange tonight.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ea9273c6ecfdbe5dab1eab3e9fa335ca74c086cc9c9209ae

In the first clip, I got in over my head for certain.  For just a brief moment at the end, I thought I was going to escape...  But it wasn't to be.

In the second clip, I'm again fighting over TT.  This time I survive, even though I make a critical mistake a little after 2:30...  I allowed a Spit to turn the tables on me, but luckily he was out of cannon rounds and possibly damaged from a previous engagement.

Enjoy!

[Murdr]

I can't fail to consider that he was able to hit me first and had he been a better shot would have killed me before I got my shot on him...

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ea9273c6ecfdbe5dab1eab3e9fa335cacd2985923a3cf451

Unfortunately, this one fight is about the only fight I had today that quialifies as a 1vs1.

When you're inverted and the opponent crosses under you that close its a bad idea to just roll your lift vector and follow like you did.  It is and overshoot trap.  You will blow right through and under his flight path while also accelerating in a nose down turn.  I and many others try to coax an opponent to do that often.  Lucky for you he didn't nail the shot and overshot in much the same way.

[442w30]

This is the best discussion the forum has seen as long as I have been a member.  The give and take involved is excellent and I implore thedevils advocates and trolls to stay OUT of this one so that others can contribute and/or learn something in a respectful environment.

Since I have few quality flying skills, I cannot contribute in any other way than the above.    those that are taking the time to teach and discuss.

[Murdr]

But watching Murdr's films, he very rarely pulls off the gas.

Not without a good reason.
dragnbag2.zip - In this film I chop the throttle because I need to pull a lead on a slower plane that is about to decelerate in a climbing turn while I am accelerating through a split-s.  I need to cap my speed gain to have a chance at making the shot.
More on this film:  I start by going after a lone 38 and quickly end up an a 3v1.  The combination of enemy E states is not a good sitiuation to work with, so I reset the fight and re-engage when it is a situation I can manage.  Which was a 2v1 where the 2 are separated enough that I can address each with a merge individually.

It is and overshoot trap.  You will blow right through and under his flight path while also accelerating in a nose down turn.  I and many others try to coax an opponent to do that often.

Which by the way is exactly what I did with the N1k.  This time I couldn't follow up on the overshoot because of the 38 trailing me.  Regardless it put the N1k in a bad situation.
I should also point out that I had the option to bug out of the 3v1 because I was managing my E to conserve it.  Had I been a little slower I could not have kept out of the N1k's guns.  Also, when I turned back into the 2v1, I beat them both on E.  That was also part of the strategy on when I was to re-engage.  I was counting on the N1k to bleed off his dive speed faster than myself, and I gave that time to happen.  None of that would have been possible if I were bleeding E by tinkering with my throttle to pull maneuvers that would not result in an immediate kill.

bingofun2.zip - In this one I am out of ammo with 2 pursuiers.  I need to slow down from over 500mph so I can turn circles in my ack and get rid of these guys.  Even then I only burned off about 150 mph, because a few hard maneuvers would get me to a good area of the envelope to deal with the bandits.

[Anaxogoras]

This is the best discussion the forum has seen as long as I have been a member.  The give and take involved is excellent and I implore thedevils advocates and trolls to stay OUT of this one so that others can contribute and/or learn something in a respectful environment.

You mean trolling like you're doing right now?   Seriously, we meant every word of what we said in the other thread.  No devil's advocacy there.

That said, I really enjoyed the first film murdr posted, and I'm going to watch the rest of the films in this thread.

[PFactorDave]

When you're inverted and the opponent crosses under you that close its a bad idea to just roll your lift vector and follow like you did.  It is and overshoot trap.  You will blow right through and under his flight path while also accelerating in a nose down turn.  I and many others try to coax an opponent to do that often.  Lucky for you he didn't nail the shot and overshot in much the same way.

Could you perhaps describe what it is that he has done to try to coax me into the trap.  How he lays the trap, so to speak.  Or at least describe how you would attempt to lay such a trap.  Then perhaps talk about what a better response would have been on my part.

[Murdr]

Or at least describe how you would attempt to lay such a trap.

I have.  Get under the merge.  Make them pass through your lift vector.  If they invert, race to make it inside their best turn circle, which may involve turning into them to cut the angles.  Not just the initial merge, any merge where it's possible.

Then perhaps talk about what a better response would have been on my part.

Don't invert on a merge and pull on a shot unless you're sure the shot is there.  This is a "Doc, it hurts when I do this" Doctor replies "Well stop doing that" kind of thing.  How to respond instead?  It depends, change the speed, change the separation, and the response changes.  The constant answer is don't bite on the trap.  If you can make the turn and get the kill then it wasn't a very good trap.


Here's an example though http://www.airwarrioronline.com/films/reverse.zip