P-51B and D models

[Ack-Ack]

AKAK I am talking about a specific problem with the mossie combat trim, the same as the Ki84.  It won't allow you to pull as hard as it could.  It's trimmed for neutral flight.  As soon as I've got my CH gear sorted out I'll post a film of it.  You litteraly can't stall the mossie without trimming the elevator around 340mph ias or so. Trim it, and you can.

CC...misunderstood your previous post.


ack-ack

[PFactorDave]

AKAK I am talking about a specific problem with the mossie combat trim, the same as the Ki84.  It won't allow you to pull as hard as it could.  It's trimmed for neutral flight.  As soon as I've got my CH gear sorted out I'll post a film of it.  You litteraly can't stall the mossie without trimming the elevator around 340mph ias or so. Trim it, and you can.

May I request that you make said film with the KI84, simply for my benefit.  I've heard this before about the KI, but would really like to see it in action.

[moot]

I might be wrong on the Ki84 and confusing it with compression. I only remember making the same mental note as the mossie, thinking about making a fourth control mode with manual trim mapped to the joystick so I could pull more than combat trim allowed.  It's not hard to test for yourself.  Fly with combat trim and try pulling +G into a stall. If it doesn't happen, try trimming it some more.  If combat trim is limiting the 84 as it does the mossie, you'll be able to stall it out when trimmed but not when CT'd.

[Yenny]

I hate 51 so NERF IT !

[Scotch]

Combat trim limits the ki84. There are threads about this. Use the search function.

[lyric1]

I'd like to see how someone fires just 2 rounds.

All in the head & she goes boom.

[Oldman731]

Inasmuch as the Ki-84 can't begin deploying flaps until dangerously slow (danger in that it is a sitting duck for the third man in), its pilot must get the fight into the vertical and use the Ki-84's strengths to break down the opposition's E, where it can dominate the fight by forcing the fight up hill.

Key.  Don't believe that there are any Allied fighters, including the Spits, that can keep up with the Frank using this technique.

- oldman

[AKHog]

A. 4 notches of flaps with little to no stick input.
or
B. 1 notches of flap with 2/3rds evelator input.

Which has more drag vs lift?

You ask two questions, first what is better, then you ask what has more drag vs lift.

4 notches of flaps has more drag AND lift than 1 notch, simply because you are increasing the angle of attack and increasing the coefficient of drag and lift by modifying the airfoil. Which one is better is a much more complicated question, depending on how you define better. Rate of turn, radius of turn, control in turn, or energy retained in turn are all different in each situation and could all be better or worse depending on what your position in the fight is.

[MORAY37]

Medium altitude is where the Ki-84 really performs well. By medium alt, I mean between 10k and 15k. Up there, you are not dealing with control stiffening and aero loading as this is a function of IAS (indicated air speed), not TAS (true airspeed). The lower it gets, the more control stiffening and aero loading becomes an issue. Control stiffening can be overcome by trim. Aero loading cannot be overcome, except by paying close attention to your speed.

Where the Ki-84 is at greatest risk is when speeds are just below corner velocity. At a speed near that, most American fighters can get one or more notches (for lack of a better term) of flaps out. This enables them to cut the corner and pull lead. Inasmuch as the Ki-84 can't begin deploying flaps until dangerously slow (danger in that it is a sitting duck for the third man in), its pilot must get the fight into the vertical and use the Ki-84's strengths to break down the opposition's E, where it can dominate the fight by forcing the fight up hill.


My regards,

Widewing

Absolutely correct Wide.  Stop telling peeps how to fly the '84 though.....She'll own anything except a really good 109 driver, if flown correctly.  Lusche gave me the goose the other night and I'm still peeved about it...especially since I now know we've got the Ki84 modelled with Jap fuel from late war.  I got Lusche, errr, Snailman in a down and dirty the other night( he started out the fight with 3K over me) and started taking the fight uphill after a few E bleeding turns, only to watch him catch me in the vert in a 109G6. ( Kind of annoying that it's modelled with crap fuel, when all late war axis aircraft had crappy fuel as it was.)  Looking up the figures, (from allied testing in war) I should have had almost 600 feet per minute more climb than he did at that point in fight.... instead he followed me up and stuck until he tatered me.  Very well flown, anyone else... and I would easily have converted the six oclock.  I've used the same manuevers with many others with MUCH more alt and waxed em....   

[Bronk]

Key.  Don't believe that there are any Allied fighters, including the Spits, that can keep up with the Frank using this technique.

- oldman

A good Spit Mk VIII driver will give a good 84 driver fits.

[Lusche]

Absolutely correct Wide.  Stop telling peeps how to fly the '84 though.....She'll own anything except a really good 109 driver, if flown correctly.  Lusche gave me the goose the other night and I'm still peeved about it...especially since I now know we've got the Ki84 modelled with Jap fuel from late war.  I got Lusche, errr, Snailman in a down and dirty the other night( he started out the fight with 3K over me) and started taking the fight uphill after a few E bleeding turns, only to watch him catch me in the vert in a 109G6. ( Kind of annoying that it's modelled with crap fuel, when all late war axis aircraft had crappy fuel as it was.)  Looking up the figures, (from allied testing in war) I should have had almost 600 feet per minute more climb than he did at that point in fight.... instead he followed me up and stuck until he tatered me. 

http://www.mediafire.com/?gjkrd0tnznm

[MachNix]

Thanks for the film, Lusche.  It is nice to see what an aircraft can do. <S>

[Oldman731]

A good Spit Mk VIII driver will give a good 84 driver fits.

We've had this match-up a couple of times in AvA, any Spit v. the Nik and Frank.  Spits get clobbered, doesn't seem to matter which one people fly.  Hey, it's one of my rare chances to fly a Spit without shame, and I always end up spinning to terra firma.  I don't think my experience has been unique, for once.

- oldman

[bongaroo]

Are you trimming the 84 manualy, at med-high speeds? I don't remember it being dead meat in those circumstances except when combat trim limited its elevator authority.  It doesn't fly great above 400, but it's not dead meat either.

QTF, a whole new world in the Ki84 opened up for me when I started using manual trim at high speeds.  Amazing how quickly you can push the blackout and really cut in with need angles at those higher speeds.  400+ and it's getting close to ripping itself apart.

To bad its modeled with the inferior fuel the Japanese had to use.  It tested very close to the performance of the p51d after the war with proper fuel.  I have a lot of respect for it's design.

The P-38 is much more of a challenge for me to fly.  I default to the Ki-84 if I'm not having fun or becoming frustrated.