Author Topic: You don't NEED a gun simplified.  (Read 4410 times)

Offline Patches1

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2008, 10:38:14 AM »
AKHog,

When you join any branch of the Military of the United States you swear an Oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign, and DOMESTIC.

The Second Amendment to the Constituition is not outdated and never will be; our Founding Fathers made this very clear.



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Offline AKHog

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2008, 10:39:14 AM »
Sorry I don't have time to reply to every comment, hopefully some other logical folks will come in here and help the conversation.

Flotsom, the short barreled shotgun is the best home defense weapon. There is very little disadvantage in close combat, and the statistics prove that it is WAY more effective inside a house than any pistol. If you think otherwise then go right ahead, I don't have time to argue. I have shot a .45, I own a nice Colt 1911 in fact. Like I said, I wouldn't even think about using it for HD until I ran out of shotgun shells (not gona happen).

Rock salt or any non-lethals, forget about it. If you pull out your gun in a defense situation you should be ready to shoot and kill someone. This is a major idea in any self defense gun class that gets forgotten about too quickly. If you are not ready to kill the person then you are probably not on the side of the law.

Vulcan, why the hell would you shoot that animal and then just roll it down a gully to rot away? Seems like a big waste. If you must go kill things why not kill something that you can eat? I fly hang gliders over a mountain that regularly has dozens of pure white goats much like that one. They are beautiful to watch and amazing creatures, if I saw some dude shoot one and basically throw it away I'd definitely have some words.  :mad:
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 10:52:16 AM by AKHog »
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Offline AKHog

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2008, 10:50:58 AM »
AKHog,

When you join any branch of the Military of the United States you swear an Oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign, and DOMESTIC.

The Second Amendment to the Constituition is not outdated and never will be; our Founding Fathers made this very clear.

What does joining the military have to do with anything. You are right, the second is very clear.

"Codification of the right to keep and bear arms into the Bill of Rights was influenced by a fear that the federal government would disarm the people in order to impose rule through a standing army or select militia,[2] since history had shown taking away the people's arms and making it an offense for people to keep them was the way tyrants eliminated resistance to suppression of political opponents." -wiki

Only recently in DC vs Heller (2008) has it been argued that self defense is protected by the 2nd amendment. The actual amendment reads as follows:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Where does it say anything about self defense? And I back up my original point by saying this amendment is dated, because if we were really concerned about a well regulated militia to protect the free state, then we'd be arming ourselves with tanks and warplanes. When it was written, it was logical to think a militia with rifles and hand guns could fight a tyrannical government, that is simply no longer the case.

I think eventually DC vs Heller will be over ruled by the left and we will loose more gun rights in all states. The bottom line is, in my humble opinion, owning guns for self defense is not specifically protected by the constitution. I think the majority of people who have guns for self defense are living a dream and probably fantasize about 'protecting' their home and shooting someone more than they'd like to admit. Outside of living in a high crime area probably near a city, there statistically just isn't much reason to have a gun for self defense, your are simply more likely to hurt yourself or someone you know. A lot of guys are strait up arming themselves for 'when the zombies come' and actually think at some point in their lives will need assault rifles to protect themselves. These types of people do not live in reality, and do not think rationally when it comes to guns.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 11:07:05 AM by AKHog »
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Offline bongaroo

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2008, 10:55:11 AM »

we'd be arming ourselves with tanks and warplanes.


True that!  fighting a tank with a musket would suck, huh?
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2008, 11:42:27 AM »
More specific.

to clarify, what i ment was that if you shot someone at close range with a .45 hollow point they were done. the massive damage the slug does when it hits flesh is disasterous to the victim. the size of a 12 gauge blast is obviousely going to be bigger, it fires a much bigger slug or shot package. but you will be just as dead or disabled if at equal distance and at the same impact location it was a .45 hollow point hitting you.

it is like the difference between getting run over by a bus or a train, there is only just so dead you can get :)

i take nothing away from the 12 guage, it makes a hell of a mess of anything it hits.

Hog you really need to show me where i can get those statistics from. im not argueing against the 12 guage shorty, i owned a remington riot control w/pistol grip for awhile. loved it. but when it comes to amount of ammo held rate of fire and time to reload my .45's were faster hands down, besides it was a b**ch sleeping with the remington under my pillow :)

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Offline AKHog

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2008, 12:33:58 PM »
to clarify, what i ment was that if you shot someone at close range with a .45 hollow point they were done. the massive damage the slug does when it hits flesh is disasterous to the victim. the size of a 12 gauge blast is obviousely going to be bigger, it fires a much bigger slug or shot package. but you will be just as dead or disabled if at equal distance and at the same impact location it was a .45 hollow point hitting you.

it is like the difference between getting run over by a bus or a train, there is only just so dead you can get :)

i take nothing away from the 12 guage, it makes a hell of a mess of anything it hits.

Hog you really need to show me where i can get those statistics from. im not argueing against the 12 guage shorty, i owned a remington riot control w/pistol grip for awhile. loved it. but when it comes to amount of ammo held rate of fire and time to reload my .45's were faster hands down, besides it was a b**ch sleeping with the remington under my pillow :)

FLOTSOM

Flotsom, I don't have the stats in front of me now, sorry. However I will point out this, simply look at what LEO carries. You'll find very few of them carrying the .45 anymore. Most of them carry a smallish caliber hand gun and any time a firefight might break out you'll see them grabbing the shotguns. I think the .40 S&W is the most popular law enforcement gun nowadays. In reality the .45 is just overkill in most situations, and you'd be better off with a better handling smaller caliber.

The reason the 12 gauge is better at home D is simply because in a very stressful situation where you may need to use a gun, the shotgun has a much higher chance of getting ammo to the target. Unless you are a trained professional, handling a high powered handgun in a high stress situation statistically doesn't lead to the best results. Hell my wife could fend off an attacker shooting the shotgun from her hip with very little training. THAT is why it is so effective.

As far as amount of ammo and reload time, if you are doing that you probably already lost. 5 rounds in a shotgun is PLENTY to get the job done. If you are worried about an organized team of professionals attacking you in your home, that don't all run away at the sound of you racking the shotgun, and don't run away after the first shot, then you are probably living in a fantasy (or you are involved with some bad people)!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 12:40:46 PM by AKHog »
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Offline AKHog

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2008, 12:45:54 PM »
BTW if you simply google "best home defense weapon" or something along those lines, you'll find the vast majority of the articles that were actually written by a gun expert agree, the 12 gauge is the best home defense gun. "Self defense" is another matter all together where the biggest consideration is carrying something on your person, in which case obviously there are better choices. However I will say again that the large majority of the average joe's who carry a concealed weapon for "self defense" are just living in some kind of fantasy. The chances of you using it effectively against an attacker are drastically overshadowed by much higher chances of you or someone you know being shot with that gun.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 12:51:21 PM by AKHog »
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2008, 12:48:08 PM »
Flotsom, I don't have the stats in front of me now, sorry. However I will point out this, simply look at what LEO carries. You'll find very few of them carrying the .45 anymore. Most of them carry a smallish caliber hand gun and any time a firefight might break out you'll see them grabbing the shotguns. I think the .40 S&W is the most popular law enforcement gun nowadays. In reality the .45 is just overkill in most situations, and you'd be better off with a better handling smaller caliber.

The reason the 12 gauge is better at home D is simply because in a very stressful situation where you may need to use a gun, the shotgun has a much higher chance of getting ammo to the target. Unless you are a trained professional, handling a high powered handgun in a high stress situation statistically doesn't lead to the best results. Hell my wife could fend off an attacker shooting the shotgun from her hip with very little training. THAT is why it is so effective.

As far as amount of ammo and reload time, if you are doing that you probably already lost. 5 rounds in a shotgun is PLENTY to get the job done. If you are worried about an organized team of professionals attacking you in your home, that don't all run away at the sound of you racking the shotgun, and don't run away after the first shot, then you are probably living in a fantasy (or you are involved with some bad people)!


Agreed and i conceed to your wisdom on HD.

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Offline AKHog

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2008, 12:53:13 PM »

Agreed and i conceed to your wisdom on HD.

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Offline Vulcan

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2008, 01:20:11 PM »
Vulcan, why the hell would you shoot that animal and then just roll it down a gully to rot away? Seems like a big waste. If you must go kill things why not kill something that you can eat? I fly hang gliders over a mountain that regularly has dozens of pure white goats much like that one. They are beautiful to watch and amazing creatures, if I saw some dude shoot one and basically throw it away I'd definitely have some words.  :mad:

Because they're a feral pest, they cause extensive erosive damage as well as property damage (they wreck fences).  Maybe you should get down off your lofty hang glider and smell one sometime, the meat is not suitable for eating (not even pet food). Might pay to do some research before planting your foot so squarely in your mouth ;)

Offline AKHog

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2008, 01:46:44 PM »
Because they're a feral pest, they cause extensive erosive damage as well as property damage (they wreck fences).  Maybe you should get down off your lofty hang glider and smell one sometime, the meat is not suitable for eating (not even pet food). Might pay to do some research before planting your foot so squarely in your mouth ;)

Sorry, but strait out killing it and dumping its body still doesn't sit well with me. Let me get this strait, you want to kill it because it causes erosion, stinks and can't be eaten, and I'm the one with my foot in my mouth? From the quick research I've done I can't really see them being a big problem (care to provide links that prove me wrong?). As far as 'erosive damage' do you realize that they have been here for thousands of years causing erosion and this has never been a problem? Only when people build things on or around naturally eroding terrain is this a problem. Rain causes a LOT more erosion after all, what do you plan to do about that? Erosion is a natural part of the world and thinking we can change it by offing a few goats is just stupid. Wrecking fences, only when ranchers put up fences across their natural migration paths does it become a problem. Do you really think the most logical answer to this is to kill the goat? There are lots of animals that are not suitable for eating, lots of them stink too, is the answer to this kill them all because they are of little use to us humans?

I live in Wyoming where the majority thinks they should have the right to shoot and kill anything that comes on their property. I just get sick and tired of hearing the same old stupid arguments about killing wolves and the like because they are 'pests', when the truth is obvious, these people want to shot them for the simple sport of killing another living animal. They have been here for centuries and the problem has obviously been introduced by humans. It really just shows how egotistical, insecure and DUMB these types of people really are. I'm not saying you are one of them, or at least I hope your not.

Around here the Rocky Mountain Goat has been here a lot longer than we have, and is no pest as far as I can tell. I have been close enough to smell them, they aren't that bad, certainly not bad enough for me to want to kill them! In fact just this fall I was only about 30 feet above the ground, level with a ridge line high in the mountains, and was close enough that the goats actually saw me and watched me fly by. Maybe if you were exposed to animals in a different light you would have different feelings. I'm sure if you just tried you would find that you can enjoy nature more from behind a camera or from above in a glider than you ever will from behind a gun.

BTW your comments are offensive and generally negative, and show you really know nothing about me. If we are going to have a grown up discussion at least try to keep it civilized.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 01:55:26 PM by AKHog »
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Offline ColSuave

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2008, 01:53:17 PM »
This is probably the BEST article on the reason given AGAINST owning a firearm that I've seen so far.

Covers some interesting points on arguments against.

Hope you find it interesting and worthy of comment.

http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm


umm, yea, I'm not reading all that.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2008, 03:07:23 PM »
Sorry, but strait out killing it and dumping its body still doesn't sit well with me. Let me get this strait, you want to kill it because it causes erosion, stinks and can't be eaten, and I'm the one with my foot in my mouth? From the quick research I've done I can't really see them being a big problem (care to provide links that prove me wrong?). As far as 'erosive damage' do you realize that they have been here for thousands of years causing erosion and this has never been a problem? Only when people build things on or around naturally eroding terrain is this a problem. Rain causes a LOT more erosion after all, what do you plan to do about that? Erosion is a natural part of the world and thinking we can change it by offing a few goats is just stupid. Wrecking fences, only when ranchers put up fences across their natural migration paths does it become a problem. Do you really think the most logical answer to this is to kill the goat? There are lots of animals that are not suitable for eating, lots of them stink too, is the answer to this kill them all because they are of little use to us humans?

I live in Wyoming where the majority thinks they should have the right to shoot and kill anything that comes on their property. I just get sick and tired of hearing the same old stupid arguments about killing wolves and the like because they are 'pests', when the truth is obvious, these people want to shot them for the simple sport of killing another living animal. They have been here for centuries and the problem has obviously been introduced by humans. It really just shows how egotistical, insecure and DUMB these types of people really are. I'm not saying you are one of them, or at least I hope your not.

Around here the Rocky Mountain Goat has been here a lot longer than we have, and is no pest as far as I can tell. I have been close enough to smell them, they aren't that bad, certainly not bad enough for me to want to kill them! In fact just this fall I was only about 30 feet above the ground, level with a ridge line high in the mountains, and was close enough that the goats actually saw me and watched me fly by. Maybe if you were exposed to animals in a different light you would have different feelings. I'm sure if you just tried you would find that you can enjoy nature more from behind a camera or from above in a glider than you ever will from behind a gun.

BTW your comments are offensive and generally negative, and show you really know nothing about me. If we are going to have a grown up discussion at least try to keep it civilized.

I'm not so sure you're comparing apples to apples here.  Vulcan is talking about feral animals, not native animals.  The Mountain Goats you have in your beautiful state of Wyoming (I admit it, I'm jealous of where you live) belong there as part of the natural environment (as do the wolves, etc, you mention).  They are part of the natural ecosystem, work with it, and are even vital in some mannor to its overall health.

Not so with feral and/or invasive species, like the goat Vulcan mentioned.  Those animals have been introduced by man's activities into an ecosystem where they don't belong, and often prosper at the expense of native flora and fauna.  They generally don't have natural predators in their new environment and reproduce rapidly, with little/no natural population control.  Other examples of these species would be carp (of several varieties) European Starlings, English Sparrows, pigeons/rock doves/sky-carp, Eurasion Water Milfoil, Purple Loosestrife (probably a problem near you?) Zebra Mussels, sticklebacks, feral cats (domestic animals), feral hogs, pheasants, and a whole slew of others (some even consider non-native americans to be an "invasive species", hehe!)

Feral/invasive species are a major environmental concern, and are massively difficult/expensive to control.  It goes way beyond finding a "use" for the dead critters.  We can't just sit idle and wait until there's a "use" for a dead feral animal to solve the problem.  The problem grows exponentially each year- any lost time in managing the problem could easily make managing it simply impossible.

Don't get me wrong-  I'm not in favor of just killing animals "wastefully".  I hunt and fish, and value the natural environment.  But, sometimes doing "nothing" is more destructive than doing "something", even if it's a bit distasteful.  In reality, the dead goat that Vulcan shot probably did more good to the ecosystem by rotting and feeding some scavengers than it ever could have done by living.

Even I've killed things with no intention of using them.  I found a mouse in one of the traps in my kitchen today, and I doubt the wife will be thrilled if I put in the refridgerator to add to our supper menu.  The fact that I don't really know how fresh it is won't help either...  I also hit a skunk on the highway, and just left it.  I didn't kill it intentionally (like I did the mouse), but I was driving intentionally, and was passing through some prime skunk habitat...
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Offline AKHog

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2008, 03:20:06 PM »
Well its my fault because I read right over the part where Vulcan said it was an invasive species, in which case I owe Vulcan an apology. In many cases in my personal experience this has not been the case. In my defense Vulcan did not list any the reasons mtnman did like over population or undue harm to the local ecosystem, instead he said they stink and cause erosion, not good reasons to kill something in my humble opinion. And if they are invasive, I still think there are probably better, more humane ways to deal with the problem rather than simply shooting them.
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Offline camnite

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Re: You don't NEED a gun simplified.
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2008, 03:32:42 PM »
but certainly not as cheap as a 40 cent bullet. You dont factor the cost into what we are already having to pay
for all the other enviromental "fixes", why should we have to pay more?
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