My take on AcesHigh

[-lazs-]

Ok jelyl and yeager look... The Phony realism is this... We are in a fantasy arena.   WWII ac FM and gunsets are simulated as best they can be... No one is given orders and everyone is given a choice of whatever plane they want and there is a great deal of parity and balance between possible planes there is nothing at this time about any of them that is unbalancing.  No one is asked/ordered  to fly in any particular way for any particular purpose... The MA is like what 99% of WWII Pilots did... Got up there and "dogfite" other planes, even allies 1 on 1, testing their skills and machines.   It's just that we get to shoot the guns at all the planes.  So far so good I say.  That's what i want in a sim first and foremost.

Now.... A bunch of crybabies don't like the way some guys fly or that their hero plane isn't a good low alt single plane dogfiter so they start ringing the "realism" alarm bell.   "there were only 200 C Hogs"  "The hog and nik use witchcraft"  "There is too much action",  "the planes turn when I try to shoot em"  "they won't come up to 30K for a realistic fite"...  These guys are shocked when a Corsair or nik outperforms a Mustang under 15K even if that is what they really did.  

Now, on to cannon.. Maybe they didn't make many cannon hogs.... They didn't need too.   6 X 50 were considered devestating firepower.   If they were (devestating) in the game, Then.... I would be using the D and not the C but for me... The fifties don't work that great.  I would rather have em, with their extra ammo and all but.... Well, maybe some dispertion things will get sorted out and the whole problem will just go away..   Only 200 planes?  Sheesh... look at some of the other planes we have and now they want the Dora of which I doubt many more than that ever got off a runway.

jekyl, anyone who brings up realism in the MA in anything other than FM's and gunnery is one of the "phony realism" set to me.... And if they do bring up FM's or gunnery then at least try to be "specific" and..... right.  

And while I'm pissed.... ask me what I think of the idiotic "perk" plane idea.  
lazs

[-lazs-]

Well since I'm wound up... jedi.. you are of course correct.  They are going to introduce late war planes oon a "perk" system..  High scoring pilots will be flying uber planes around in an otherwise parity filled arena.  I suppose that they will introduce early war planes by a "reverse perk" system.... If you don't score enough points you will be forced to fly a P39.

I left WB because it wasn't fun anymore.  Allies VS Axis 24/7 and the "historical" bent is not what I want in a "fun" game that i spend an hour or two at night on.   I moved to AH as soon as two things happened.... WB went "historical" (and therefore boring, limiting, and bland) and... AH fixed the old 1.03 FM so that you could actually have some ACM...When AH goes that way (the way of WB) I will move on to the next fledgling game with good FM's and a lot of action.

I love history.   I am not interested in re-creating it however.   I don't believe that we can, given the resources we have as simmers...  I think that the pale imitations that have been achieved so far are worse that nothing.   I just want to kill something.
lazs

[GRUNHERZ]

over 700 doras

[funked]

My cat's breath smells like cat food.

[Toad]

hmmmm, Funked.

My dog's breath smells like cat. This is getting interesting!

[Jekyll]

 

I moved to AH as soon as two things happened....

Perhaps the best reason yet why AH should immediately move to an Axis-v-Allied arena and revert to the 1.03 FM's  

I understand you much better now lazs.  You want a flightsim loosely based on WW2 aircraft but which has no historical relationship with either the era or the actual war, in which all the aircraft YnB like crazy.

Hmmm wonder if Crimson Skies has a Corsair?

[Yeager]

Jekyll has hit that long proverbial nail squarley on the head.

Lazs is definately flying four 20mm cannon loosely attached to what can be considered a derivative of the wonderfully historic Corsair.

Lazs,
the 50s work quite fine by my book.  Grab a 1D and show us how you fight!

Yeager  

[Jekyll]

Well Yeager, I have to admit that I have no real problem with the C-Hog at all.

But when lazs starts spouting about the 'phony realists', whilst in his heart of hearts he has NO interest in AH as a simulation (only as a game), well then I find it hard to let his comments pass.  

It's the 'gamer' attitude, more than anything else, which I regard as a threat to Aces High's continuing existence.  And I do really want AH to continue and to succeed.  Unlike Lazs, I have no intention of just 'dropping' AH as soon as it becomes too historic  

Think about it for a second.... if you like WW2 flight 'games', you've got a load of choices and competition... Air Warrior, Fighter Ace, Warbirds etc.

What are your choices if you are after a simulation?

[-lazs-]

jekyl and yeager what the hell are you talking about?   AH has nothing to do with "history"... AH is a WWII aircraft flight sim.  History and the arena are like apples and oranges.   Flight sims allways have been that way.  

The arena is a condensed battlefield.   Everyone in it has more flight time than the best WWII pilots and knows how to wring out every little bit out of their plane.   Every person bouncing you is hartman or galland and shoots like beurling.  Every one bounced evades like hartman or johnson..... Every plane is in perfect condition and the only thing anyone has to worry about is himself.  

Whereas anything but basic ACM was a waste of time in the war.... Here, it works.  If you evade long enough (not long really) you will have the guy shot off your tail or reach freindly and highly accurate ack..  Here, we have planes of all nations to choose from that have strengths and weaknesses that make for overall parity and balance... we have a plane suited to everyones personality.

All this is fine.   Fair fights and great FM's with a good chance for some action and fun.  Addmittedly, this low alt, condensed situation highlights some advantages of low alt, fast, good turning planes that were "historically" not as important perhaps.

Now, mix in "history".... What is that you guys really want?   Why don't you tell us all how much you want to limit the action, choice, and skew the balance with your particular version of "history".   Or, your particular shade of "phony realism".   We know what we have now.   Why don't you share with us your vision of "realism".  Let's see what your idea of the ideal mix of practical arena, balance, and history is.

Oh, 700 Doras got airframe numbers.... not much more than 200 ever flew.

I guess that mostly tho... i want to know what it is you want..  It appears that you want to remove a couple of planes whos FM is spot on and which are not in the least unbalancing to most people.... Then, you appear to cheer the concept of "perk" uberplanes?   U appear to want "realism" and "history" when both were just an endless series of unbalanced technical and numerical fights.   But the Hog and niki are too much for you?   You cry and cry but you have no ideas.... nothing to contribute but your wails and..... Your plea to "remove the ______ ".....(let's leave it open for the future eh?).

No, I'm not a WWII pilot and I don't play one on a sim.
lazs

[easymo]

 What do you want? What do you want? People keep asking this.

 I want what every prop sim fan has ever wanted. Speed AND maneuverability. The Japanese came the closest to pulling off this magic trick. In a word, I want a Frank  .

[Fatty]

I still don't see the problem with F4U/niki, and still think it's a mass hysteria/freeze when you see one symptom.

You guys have actually convinced yourself that you can do nothing against these planes and are dead on sight.

[Thunder]

Fatty,
I agree with you on the F4U/N1K2! I checked out the score stats and they don't seem to support all the claims.

Example from Tour 11 Stats:

• The P-51D has 692 kills and has been killed 791 times against the F4U-1C.
• The P-51D has 413 kills and has been killed 374 times against the N1K2.
• Thunder has 19 kills and has been killed 6 times in the P-51D against the F4U-1C.
• Thunder has 12 kills and has been killed 4 times in the P-51D against the N1K2.

I seem to have the hardest time against the 109G-10 then any other. I is the REAL Uber Plane LOL!   I think the pilot has the biggest impact on the fight! I hope everyone flies there own plane, flies it there own way, and learns what works for them. This last sentence is not a comment about this thread or anyone posting here. One thing I have noticed about the better pilots... They don't whine and make excuses when they get killed!  

Salute
Thunder

[Jekyll]

OK lazs.... here goes.  I'm typing slowly because I can tell it's gonna take time for you to comprehend what I am saying  

 

Now, mix in "history".... What is that you guys really want? Why don't you tell us all how much you want to limit the action, choice, and skew the balance with your particular version of "history". Or, your particular shade of "phony realism". We know what we have now. Why don't you share with us your vision of "realism". Let's see what your idea of the ideal mix of practical arena, balance, and history is.

Taking your rant point, by point.

How much do I want to limit your action, choice etc?   Not at all.  You wanna fly an F4U1-C until your arms drop off?  Go for it  

And I've already spoken at length about the issues I would like to see incorporated into AH.  They're issues like sun glare, aircraft type only icons within 2000 yds, realistic pilot capabilities and fatigue etc.  Nothing TOO dramatic, wouldn't you say?  Now maybe this IS "phony realism" .... you decide.  All I would like to see is the conferring of an advantage to flying smart.  Instead of just boring in on the nearest enemy con - plan the engagement to be upsun.  Instead of letting fly as soon as the icon registers '400' - encourage driving in close for the kill.  Instead of just 'pull on the pole until you puke' - encourage energy-efficient and smooth flying.

Is THAT too much for you to comprehend?  Is all that TOO much realism for you to handle?

So let me just say this.  It seems that YOU are the person with the problem here.  You find someone who disagrees with you and suddenly they are labelled 'phony realists'.

Vaguely reminiscent of the people who cry 'racist' whenever someone comes out to argue against some of the PC roadkill.  I never said I wanted to restrict your plane choice .... YOU were the one who brought up the idea of an RPS.

And why oh why did you bring that up about the dora numbers?  Have I ever mentioned anything about the 190D-9?

The only good thing to come out of this is the knowledge that as soon as AH becomes too much for you to handle - you'll be off to somewhere else.

And that can only be a good thing.

P.S.  I for one don't want to see ANY of the planes removed from Aces High.  But you already knew that lazs, didn't you    

Jekyll has 11 kills and has been killed 2 times against the F4U-1C.

Jekyll has 20 kills and has been killed 6 times against the N1K2.

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-25-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

Well now...this is getting pretty interesting!

I think both sides have some good points to make...it's a shame it has gotten a bit testy.

Jekyll has mentioned a few things that would make the game play more 'immersive'...things that pay off to the folks willing to invest the time in a little strategy. This is good.

Lasz, on the other hand, seems more interested in playing the game in a "slam, bam, thank you, ma'am" manner. He sounds like he's using the game as a quick bit of fun whenever he feels like letting his hair down. No big investment in time or tactics...just a good thrash and then back to the real world. This, too, is good.

Shouldn't there be room for both views? I think so...and I think most, if not all, of you do too. The problem comes when someone seems to be wanting to take things away from the game, rather than adding to the overall game environment. As a rule, this is usually bad, and I would hope everyone could agree on that.

Game...sim...where does one end and the other start? I'm not sure I could say...or if I tried to, I'd have to use my RL experience as a guideline, and that would result in the sim proponents getting a burr under their saddles!

Personally, I'd much prefer individual arenas where the aircraft are specific to their era. And then implement kill removal...that's how we did it in real life...combat or peacetime training. Get shot and you're done for the day! Kill removal tends to make folks a whole bunch more cautious!

Andy

[SKurj]

EEEEEK Andy... Kill removal will not exist ever in day to day play in these arena sims.  If it did the better players would get more for their $30 than the rookies +)
Scenarios give you that stuff.  Impose it on yourself by all means though  

Some features which permit immersion I like, sunglare, cloud layers etc.  Some i don't..  engine management..  a feature like that if forced upon the player would seriously cripple Aces growth.  Make it a client side option sure  

Some players don't have 2 or 3 hours at a sitting to enjoy the game.  The slam bam approach maybe all they can hope for.  The people like Jekyll who have the time and wish to fly smart, have alot of slam bammers to feed on, I dunno what the problem is there.  Does fighting smart change if the player you are fighting is pulling til he pukes? NO!  (and no u can't insert HO whine here   )

I've seen the illeetist crap before, and I am seeing it here as well, wake up!!  Its your $30 and its my $30, I'll enjoy how I spend my money my way, just do the same and we can all just suffer from big grins  

AKskurj

[This message has been edited by SKurj (edited 12-26-2000).]